Lost in some mountains

[Galin]

Anyone want to try his or her hand at the meaning of (Galadriel speaking in The Lord of the Rings):

'He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.' ... considering that Celeborn, at least as published by JRRT himself, is ultimately Sindarin (not Nandorin), and that according to another Tolkien-published account, after the defeat of Morgoth, Galadriel: '... passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' The Road Goes Ever On

I'm aware that Tolkien changed his mind about the history of these two characters, but since he published both descriptions, and since he never revised the passage from The Lord of the Rings, I'm wondering how people attempt to merge the two into one internal tale.

If people do, that is

[Alcuin]

Well, Celeborn was a Sinda when Lord of the Rings was written; it was only in the last couple of years of Tolkien’s life that he began to try to “whitewash” Galadriel’s rebellious past. Up until then, Galadriel, desirous of lands to rule on her own, had been a leader in the Rebellion of the Noldor, but then turned on Fëanor (whom she appears to have disliked to begin with) when the Noldor sacked the harbor of Alqualondë where her grandfather Olwë was king of the Teleri. Thus the temptation of the Ring in “Mirror of Galadriel” is so powerful: it is her rejection of the temptation that redeems her: she must renounce her schemes, her dreams, her lust for power, and her desire to rule others – the want to be Great – that gets her a berth on the white ship with Gandalf.

Personally, a flawed Galadriel is much more interesting than the whitewashed version.

That leaves Celeborn one of the Sindar, son of the mysterious Elmo, younger brother of Elu Thingol and Olwë. (I.e., Galadriel married her second cousin.) Celeborn has always lived in Middle-earth in the original telling, and so his desire to remain behind for while when Galadriel returned at the end of the Third Age makes much more sense; after all, for Elves, a few centuries is only a passing time. The Elvish primary intermediate time-scale was not the year, but the yén, 144 years. (Appendix D, “Calendars”)

Galadriel lived in Doriath with her uncle Thingol, where she met Celeborn. Melian the Maia discovered the shadow on the Sons of Fëanor, and that some darkness covered all the Noldor that Galadriel would not disclose to her, and she warned her husband of this. Though at first he dismissed it, Thingol soon learned of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, and Galadriel and her brothers had to leave their uncle’s kingdom. She lived for a while in Nargothrond with her brother Finrod Felagund, but when she left Beleriand is unclear.

Just to be clear for those who are either unfamiliar with some other passages or have forgotten the source, “History of Galadriel and Celeborn” in Unfinished Tales begins,

…it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea under*lies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that “He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, … and together … we have fought the long defeat.” In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf…

…in “Appendix B” … at the beginning of the Second Age “In Lindon south of Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel…” And in the notes to Road Goes Ever On … it is said that Galadriel “passed over the Mountains of Ered Luin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.”

And then later in the essay Celeborn is converted into a Teleri of Eldamar.

Celeborn keeps migrating Westward and moving up the Elven hierarchy.

In my mind’s eye, I see Galadriel in the middle telling, not the first or the last.

1. Galadriel was indeed a leader of the Rebellion.
2. Galadriel met and fell in love with Thingol’s nephew Celeborn in Doriath.
3. Galadriel did not lie to Melian, but she concealed the truth, which Melian and Thingol discovered.
4. Galadriel and Celeborn together moved to Eregion, perhaps to establish a place in which she would have more political influence away from Gil-galad’s direct control in Lindon.
5. When Sauron arrived in Eregion, he schemed to make Galadriel unwelcome. She and Celeborn left and went to Laurelindórenan (later just “Lórien”, as both Treebeard and Faramir noted). There they had a daughter, CelebrÃ*an, who became wife to Elrond.

Now things become unclear for me. Who is Amroth? Is he the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, CelebrÃ*an’s brother? Or is he a “native” Lindar/Sindar/Nandor king of Lórien who dies two-thirds of the way through the Third Age looking for his lost lover, Nimrodel, making way for Galadriel and Celeborn to rule in his place? (Conspiracy theorists, please!) It makes a lot more sense to me if he is the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, for then Treebeard’s salutation of them, “Beautiful parents of beautiful children,” makes sense. It also better explains (to my mind) why Oropher, father of Thranduil, moved so far north in Mirkwood to get away from Celeborn and his influence in the south. It suggests that Oropher, though, must also have been Sindarin, and probably related to Celeborn, explaining Celeborn’s my kinsmen visit too seldom comment to Legolas. But the textual evidence is rougher for this material. (Thranduil, however, was surely Sindarin and from Doriath.)

As an aside, I think Silmarillion indicates that Nimloth, wife of Dior EluchÃ*l, son of Beren and Lúthien, mother of Elwing wife of Eärendil, was Celeborn’s niece: the same “kinswoman/kinsman of…” language is used for Nimloth vis-Ã*-vis Celeborn as for Celeborn vis-Ã*-vis Thingol.

Here’s a diagram of the confused interrelations between the descendents of Elwë, Olwë, and “tickle-me” Elmo.

[Valandil]

Nice work, miner. That's some salt!

[Galin]

Thanks Alcuin! And will you take a shot at what Galadriel can mean by her statement?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

... Personally, a flawed Galadriel is much more interesting than the whitewashed version.

I very much agree. It is also a nice tale from a Christian perspective (in response to the theoretical argument that Tolkien certainly would have made Galadriel 'unstained' due to something relating to his faith, which I do not see as necessarily so).

In my mind’s eye, I see Galadriel in the middle telling, not the first or the last.

If by first telling you mean Galadriel entering Eriador (or beyond) before the fall of Nargothrond -- basically that's my challenge: how do we reconcile her later history with this statement?

I have an admittedly imperfect 'solution' of sorts, for people to rend and tear... but first I wanted to see suggestions without that influence.

Now things become unclear for me. Who is Amroth? Is he the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, CelebrÃ*an’s brother? Or is he a “native” Lindar/Sindar/Nandor king of Lórien who dies two-thirds of the way through the Third Age looking for his lost lover, Nimrodel, making way for Galadriel and Celeborn to rule in his place? (Conspiracy theorists, please!) It makes a lot more sense to me if he is the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, for then Treebeard’s salutation of them, “Beautiful parents of beautiful children,” makes sense.

Hmm, but the idea of Amroth as Galadriel's son was surely dropped according to Amroth and Nimrodel. No?

Treebeard's statement can be explained otherwise I think. And if CJRT is correct about Amroth, this statement was written before he became their son.

It also better explains (to my mind) why Oropher, father of Thranduil, moved so far north in Mirkwood to get away from Celeborn and his influence in the south.

And (but not that you aren't aware of it) there is also the other text where the motive for Oropher's movement is not related to Celeborn and Galadriel in any event -- or at least it's not stated to be so in note 14 Disaster Of The Gladden Fields.

On a side note: I wonder if Celeborn's statement about his kinsman might be from the 'Nandorin phase', before Tolkien settled on his Sindarin heritage. Of course it must be interpreted differently even if this was the external history.

(...) She and Celeborn left and went to Laurelindórenan (later just “Lórien”, as both Treebeard and Faramir noted). There they had a daughter, CelebrÃ*an, who became wife to Elrond.

The 'Valley of Singing Gold' brings me to another question (one I have considered myself): when do you think Galadriel introduced the mallorns?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

If by first telling you mean Galadriel entering Eriador (or beyond) before the fall of Nargothrond -- basically that's my challenge: how do we reconcile her later history with this statement?

Personally how do I deal with it. Er, um, ah, I … ah … I ignore it, Galin. There are some other inconsistencies that I am aware of, such as Harry Goatleaf leaving the Prancing Pony without having entered, and some late remnants of “Trotter” that hang on in early appearances of Strider. Without having read material outside LotR, I wouldn’t even be aware of it.

-|-

Originally Posted by Galin

I have an admittedly imperfect 'solution' of sorts, for people to rend and tear... but first I wanted to see suggestions without that influence.

Can I devise an explanation that fits? Yes, I think I can. We can tear mine apart before setting upon yours, if you’d like.

We can also delve into the permutations of the storylines if that’s what you prefer. Or both.

(Ulp! Now why do I feel like I’m walking into an abattoir? “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...”)

-|-

Ok,

He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.

I guess my first observation is that the mountains Galadriel discusses are probably not the Misty Mountains, but the old Ered Luin before the drowning of Beleriand. The old Ered Luin ran parallel to the Misty Mountains, were about as long as the Misty Mountains, but were probably not as high or wide as the Misty Mountains. I don’t know when Galadriel left Nargothrond, but since Finrod told his sister about his fear that he would be killed accompanying Beren on his quest, I guess that would be after the death of Finrod but before the coming of Turin to Nargothrond. Maybe she left when Celegorm and Curufin usurped the rule of the city from Orodreth, or maybe she left because she wanted to be regent in place of Orodreth: that would have left him vulnerable. But I can’t recall that she is mentioned again in the narrative after Finrod told her he foresaw that his excursion with Beren would cost him his life.

My first solution to offer you is that the time Galadriel is identifying is after her last conversation with Finrod in Nargothrond, possibly immediately after Finrod left, but almost certainly before Turin arrived, because the city was destroyed shortly afterwards.

Am I missing anything so far?

-|-

Originally Posted by Galin

The 'Valley of Singing Gold' brings me to another question (one I have considered myself): when do you think Galadriel introduced the mallorns?

It would have to be after Aldarion brought the seeds to Gil-galad. If he was 100 years old, born in II 700, that would be sometime early in the ninth century of the Second Age, right? The Elves must have first tried to plant them in Lindon; but they grew well in Lórien.

Another question might be this: did they grow naturally in Lórien, or was that because of Galadriel and her Ring of Power, Nenya? I think they grew naturally; but if Gil-galad had trouble growing mallorn in Lindon and gave some seeds to Galadriel, who successfully grew them in Lórien, then Sam’s mallorn growing in Hobbiton, which had formerly been part of Lindon during the Second Age (being part of the territory Gil-galad ceded to Elendil upon his arrival in Middle-earth), would be a sign of blessing on Sam and the Halflings that the Hobbits could not fully appreciate.

-|-

How shall we call an understanding of Galadriel’s story? A “rendition”? “recension”? I think JRR and CJR Tolkien made recensions, and we make renditions (in the sense of “interpretations”).

So in this rendition, Galadriel is in Lindon or Eriador when the Second Age begins. She and Celeborn have already passed over the [Blue] [M]ountains ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin, and she finds herself joined with the remaining Noldor in Lindon under the leadership of Gil-galad. Now, Galadriel is proud and ambitious: why submit to the rule of the youthful and inexperienced Gil-galad? She moves inland with best of the Noldorin craftsmen, including Celebrimbor son of Curufin son of Fëanor, greatest of the surviving Noldorin craftsmen in the Second Age. Together they found Eregion near the entrance of Khazad-dûm and begin a close and profitable alliance with the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk.

Remember that Celebrimbor’s uncle, Caranthir, had a close working relationship with the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Also, remember that Galadriel denounced Sauron in disguise as “Annatar” to Gil-galad, saying that there had been no “Annatar” in Valinor in the train of Aulë: she must have had some association with Aulë herself, as did many of the Noldor, and that might have given her (and Celebrimbor) peculiar insight into the Dwarves.

Galadriel’s hostility to Annatar made her unwelcome in Eregion once Sauron/Annatar seduced the MÃ*rdain sometime after the beginning of the thirteenth century. I believe I recall that she passed through Khazad-dûm – perhaps the Elves began jokingly to refer to it as “Moria” in those days under the influence of “Annatar” (anything to sow a little discord between friends, right?) – and settled in Lórien. Only then would she first plant a mallorn there, and only if it grew naturally, without intervention from Nenya the Ring. If Nenya was required – I don’t think it was – then no mallorn grew until the Third Age; but I’ll bet on sometime mid-way through the Second Age on that one.

-|-

That completes my rendition of Galadriel’s movements from Eldamar to Beleriand to Lindon to Eregion to Lórien. Let me get my galea and scutum in place, and you can start throwing brickbat.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Can I devise an explanation that fits? Yes, I think I can. We can tear mine apart before setting upon yours, if you’d like.

OK

I guess my first observation is that the mountains Galadriel discusses are probably not the Misty Mountains, but the old Ered Luin before the drowning of Beleriand.

The interesting thing is, the reader in Tolkien's day will not know the geography of Beleriand; or internally, how informed about the geography involved are all of the people in Galadriel's hearing? The Hobbits had just tried to cross significant mountains, and passed through Moria... but yet Galadriel probably doesn't mean the Misty Mountains, despite that these stand just West of Lórien.

It would have to be after Aldarion brought the seeds to Gil-galad. If he was 100 years old, born in II 700, that would be sometime early in the ninth century of the Second Age, right? The Elves must have first tried to plant them in Lindon; but they grew well in Lórien.

Elsewhere someone suggested that maybe Lindon was too close to the Sea, and that mallorns maybe could not grow so close to the Sea; but anyway this does not hold up well when Númenor is considered.

Another question might be this: did they grow naturally in Lórien, or was that because of Galadriel and her Ring of Power, Nenya? I think they grew naturally;...

That's the conclusion I came to as well -- under her power, but without Nenya's aid -- and one I arrived at with help. If Galadriel introduced the mallorns in Lórien in the Second Age for example, then she will not have the use of Nenya. I went over other considerations, but a person posting as Inziladun reminded that:

'In this box there is earth from my orchard, and such blessing as Galadriel has still to bestow is upon it.' Lothlórien

So in this rendition, Galadriel is in Lindon or Eriador when the Second Age begins. She and Celeborn have already passed over the [Blue] [M]ountains ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin, and she finds herself joined with the remaining Noldor in Lindon under the leadership of Gil-galad.

You have Galadriel crossing the Blue Mountains before the fall of Nargothrond, and later passing to Eregion -- OK but the challenge also includes another text published by JRRT himself in The Road Goes Ever On: after the defeat of Morgoth, Galadriel: '... passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.'

How does one reconcile Galadriel passing over these mountains before the fall of Nargothrond, and yet after the defeat of Morgoth.

Now, Galadriel is proud and ambitious: why submit to the rule of the youthful and inexperienced Gil-galad? She moves inland with best of the Noldorin craftsmen, including Celebrimbor son of Curufin son of Fëanor, greatest of the surviving Noldorin craftsmen in the Second Age. Together they found Eregion near the entrance of Khazad-dûm and begin a close and profitable alliance with the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk.

Remember that Celebrimbor’s uncle, Caranthir, had a close working relationship with the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Also, remember that Galadriel denounced Sauron in disguise as “Annatar” to Gil-galad, saying that there had been no “Annatar” in Valinor in the train of Aulë: she must have had some association with Aulë herself, as did many of the Noldor, and that might have given her (and Celebrimbor) peculiar insight into the Dwarves.

Galadriel’s hostility to Annatar made her unwelcome in Eregion once Sauron/Annatar seduced the MÃ*rdain sometime after the beginning of the thirteenth century.

A lot of this appears to hail from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. As a side note, I think Tolkien rejected some of it, but the problematic matter of the two published descriptions remains, in any case.

As Tolkien seems clear that Amroth is the son of AmdÃ*r (or 'Malgalad') according to a late text, if the mallorns grow under Galadriel's power in the Second Age, thus she would be introducing the trees in AmdÃ*r's realm... and even Amroth did not rule there until his father's death at the Last Alliance.

Hmm.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

If by first telling you mean Galadriel entering Eriador (or beyond) before the fall of Nargothrond -- basically that's my challenge: how do we reconcile her later history with this statement?

Again, I really don’t deal with it. I completely ignore the writings from about 1970 onwards that place Celeborn’s origins in Eldamar.

I may be a little slow to respond to an exegesis of the texts: right now, my time is being consumed in other efforts; perhaps some other ’Mooters will help us out. (Please join in! Don’t be timid! We occasionally bark at one another, but don’t bite.)

I read (past tense, short e) your question as asking, How do you in your reading (“mind’s eye�) reconcile the various tellings of Galadriel’s history? A proper exegesis of the texts would include the LotR material, including the Appendices, the RGEO material (small, but important), Silmarillion, UT, and Letters, and possibly various late HoME material. It would be quite an undertaking to gather it all into one place and pick it apart. Would you give greater weight to the latest writings, as is usually the case? I would not care to do that, because in dealing with Galadriel, Tolkien seems to have violated his own cardinal rule of not changing the story presented in LotR; but of course, most of Galadriel’s history is off-stage in LotR, so perhaps he decided that it wasn’t a problem to alter it, even severely. To me, some of the alterations do considerable violence to the motivations Tolkien clearly assigned Galadriel when he wrote LotR; but of course, I am not JRR Tolkien, and this was his Niggle-tree.

So what I have done – partly unconsciously at first, but more consciously over the past 10 years or so, is construct in my mind a Galadriel that suits my tastes. Picky obsessive that I am in other subjects, it sounds strange; but I find the later material on Galadriel so particularly unsatisfying that I have actively chosen to partly ignore it.

The telling seems to me to be divided by how Tolkien treats Celeborn. This is a little rough, and you will probably want to correct or modify it, Galin:

1. Early telling – Celeborn is one of the Nandor. Galadriel is a leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor and can’t go home because she pridefully refuses forgiveness.
2. Middle telling – Celeborn is one of the Sindar, Thingol’s nephew in most versions. Galadriel is a leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor and can’t go home because she pridefully refuses forgiveness.
3. Final telling – Celeborn is one of the Teleri. Galadriel is not a leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor; she just left Valinor without permission during the Rebellion, and hasn’t chosen to go home.

I have no right to proclaim one version better than the others, but I will anyway: I don’t like version three. Why Galadriel’s long lament as the Company of the Ring goes sailing down Anduin? Why is the temptation of the Ruling Ring so powerful for Galadriel: she very nearly takes it and falls. Version one is just wimpy. Wimpy, wampy, wompy. I think Tolkien was clearly working with some version of the “Middle telling� from about 1942 until about 1969 or 1970, and so I lean on that. To reiterate the principal points, with some editing,

1. Galadriel was a leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor.
2. Galadriel met and fell in love with Thingol’s nephew Celeborn in Doriath.
3. Galadriel did not lie to Melian, but she concealed the truth, which Melian and Uncle Thingol discovered.
4. Galadriel had to leave Doriath and moved to Nargothrond with her brother Finrod for a brief time.
5. Galadriel and Celeborn together crossed the Ered Luin into Eriador,
6. After the War of Wrath, Galadriel either pridefully refuses forgiveness or was exiled and forbidden for while to return to the Uttermost West. (I vote for “exiled� because of her involvement in the Rebellion, something that Tolkien was suddenly extremely interested in erasing from her past in the last 3 or 4 years of his life.)
7. Galadriel helped found Eregion, where she would have more political influence away from Gil-galad’s direct control in Lindon.
8. When Sauron arrived in Eregion, he schemed to make Galadriel unwelcome. She and Celeborn left and went to Laurelindórenan (Lórien). There they had a daughter, CelebrÃ*an, who later became wife to Elrond.
9. Galadriel remained in exile until Frodo offered her the Ruling Ring and she rejected it.

As an exegesis, it’s very poor. However, I think it is defensible because it is very close to the history and motivations that Tolkien assigned to Galadriel while he wrote Lord of the Rings and afterwards, for more than 25 years from around 1942–1969. At least, that’s my comprehension of the material. (I will also admit to finding the Galadriel material unsatisfactory and therefore tedious, mainly because I know that at the end of the analysis, I personally find the result aesthetically displeasing. But it isn’t my opinion that counts: it’s Tolkien’s.)

Enough about me. Back to the problem at hand:

Originally Posted by Galin

…the reader in Tolkien's day will not know the geography of Beleriand; or internally, how informed about the geography involved are all of the people in Galadriel's hearing?

Probably everybody except Boromir, Gimli, and the four hobbits. All the Elves knew. Aragorn knew. That was most of the audience. Neither Galadriel nor Celeborn exhibited any need to divulge their past, nor did they bother to enlighten their guests as might Gandalf or Elrond, at least in the text. As for the general geography of Beleriand, Tolkien had worked it all out in the decade prior to The Hobbit. Whether the reading audience knows the history of all this stuff is simple: unless you’ve read Silmarillion – or Entmoot – you won’t be aware of it. It is one of those “rich ‘history’� details that makes Lord of the Rings seem like real history.

Originally Posted by Galin

You have Galadriel crossing the Blue Mountains before the fall of Nargothrond, and later passing to Eregion -- OK but the challenge also includes another text published by JRRT himself in The Road Goes Ever On: after the defeat of Morgoth, Galadriel: '... passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.'

How does one reconcile Galadriel passing over these mountains before the fall of Nargothrond, and yet after the defeat of Morgoth.

You can’t resolve “before the fall of Nargothrond, and yet after the defeat of Morgoth.� It isn’t the correct order of events, and never was in any telling of the War of the Jewels. The correct order must be that Galadriel and Celeborn left Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond and before the defeat of Morgoth.

A fuller citation of The Road Goes Ever On, in the discussion on “Namárië�,

…Galadriel … was the last survivor of the [leaders of] the revolting Noldor… After the overthrow of Morgoth … a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn … and went to Eregion. ..after the fall of Sauron, in reward for …. her rejection of the Ring …, the ban was lifted, and she returned over the Sea…

I don’t see a contradiction with what I laid out in the nine points just above.

• Galadriel was a leader of the Rebellion.
• Galadriel and Celeborn together crossed the Ered Luin into Eriador,
• After the War of Wrath, Galadriel either pridefully refuses forgiveness or was exiled and forbidden to return to the Uttermost West. (I still vote for “exiledâ€�.)
• Galadriel helped found Eregion.
• Galadriel remained in exile until Frodo offered her the Ruling Ring and she rejected it.

If you’re asking about the order of “she crossed the Ered Luin� and “she was exiled and forbidden to return to the West,� I still don’t see a problem. She left Beleriand, the War of Wrath was fought, she returned (probably to Lindon, since that was all that was left of Beleriand) to speak to Eönwë (that’s implied, but Galadriel was no coward, and since she was not evil, she had no reason to fear facing Eönwë as did Sauron and the Balrog, who faced severe punishment and penance), she was unrepentant, she was exiled, and thereupon she declared didn’t care if she were exiled. She lived in Lindon for a while, and then struck out to found Eregion.

Are you saying the RGEO material’s order of these events is sacrosanct? I don’t think that’s the case; but I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien seems clear that Amroth is the son of AmdÃ*r (or 'Malgalad')

That stuff is a nightmare. Amroth and AmdÃ*r/Malgalad should be Sindarin noblemen just as are Thranduil and Oropher. (And Legolas.) Are Galadriel and Celeborn crashing Amroth’s party? Was there tension between Galadriel and Gil-galad – maybe Gil-galad was witness to Galadriel’s temper tantrum with Eönwë (“Exiled?! Me? Well, Eönwë, I don’t care whether you exile me or not, and I don’t want to go back now anyway, so there!â€�) and AmdÃ*r/Malgalad wasn’t; but it still makes lots more sense to me if either AmdÃ*r or Amroth is the son of Celeborn and Galadriel. But again, it isn’t my story to change.

Originally Posted by Galin

A lot of this appears to hail from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. As a side note, I think Tolkien rejected some of it, but the problematic matter of the two published descriptions remains, in any case.

The published material is confusing. As I’ve already said, I find the later writing less than satisfying – just about the only example in Tolkien’s legendarium for me. (The other is the loss of “elvish� orcs. If all orcs came from man-stock, where did the orcs come from before the rising of the sun?)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Again, I really don’t deal with it. I completely ignore the writings from about 1970 onwards that place Celeborn’s origins in Eldamar.

My apologies for being confusing. I did not mean the late story of the Telerin Celeborn and the unstained Galadriel, but the later idea (relative to the Nandorin notion) of Celeborn the Sinda moving into Eregion with Galadriel after the downfall of Morgoth: in other words, later than the 'Nandorin phase' with Galadriel entering Eriador in the First Age.

That said, I don't mind opening the thread to concern the history of Galadriel and Celeborn in general, which I assumed you wanted to do before taking up my challenge of sorts.

You can’t resolve “before the fall of Nargothrond, and yet after the defeat of Morgoth.”

OK, that's my challenge

And the reason I ask is this: Tolkien wrote a measure of conflicting unpublished material with respect to the history of these two characters -- but this is essentially draft material, where conflicting ideas are not unexpected as Tolkien was still working on his tale...

... but I've raised another animal: two descriptions published by JRRT himself. I tend to doubt Tolkien intended this as a purposed contradiction, so I think he might have applied his imagination to resolve the history on this point.

Are you saying the RGEO material’s order of these events is sacrosanct? I don’t think that’s the case; but I could be wrong.

I might put it: published by the author himself, as was The Lord of the Rings. And considering RGEO is telling more of an important character's story to Tolkien's readership at large (which we cannot say about various other texts like Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, for instance, which was and remained a private 'hasty outline' among Tolkien's papers until CJRT revealed it in Unfinished Tales) -- considering that, I have chosen to try to deal with stuff in RGEO on the same terms as description from The Lord of the Rings.

I'll say this much about The Road Goes Ever On too: in this book Tolkien is obviously considering already published text as he gives readers a bit more of Celeborn and Galadriel's history -- specifically, Artanis' lament and song in The Lord of the Rings.

That may be obvious enough to say, but I'm not sure the same can be said of everything Tolkien put to paper, and his memory, especially concerning very late texts, arguably becomes an issue, and one noted by CJRT in The History of Middle-Earth series.



I agree that the late version of Galadriel and Celeborn (the Teler from Aman) not only contradicts already published text, but raises problematic questions. And as I say, I too much prefer the rebel, banned Galadriel, who ultimately refuses the One.

Again, apologies for any confusion I've caused. You've done a lot of work here Alcuin! but in any case I still find your posts on the larger matter interesting, and I might comment later on some things you brought up.

[Galin]

Sorry to double post! but elsewhere someone has suggested that I've made a bit of a leap when I say that The Road Goes Ever On states that: after the defeat of Morgoth Galadriel and Celeborn passed over the Eredluin. Thus, here's the passage itself...

'After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' JRRT, RGEO

I thought my reading was natural enough, and in any case it did not occur to me that someone might read this as not problematic when compared to Galadriel's statement in The Lord of the Rings. So there is the passage in question as published, just in case others might feel there is no real problem to begin with.

____________________

Now things become unclear for me. Who is Amroth? Is he the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, CelebrÃ*an’s brother? Or is he a “native” Lindar/Sindar/Nandor king of Lórien who dies two-thirds of the way through the Third Age looking for his lost lover, Nimrodel, making way for Galadriel and Celeborn to rule in his place? (Conspiracy theorists, please!) It makes a lot more sense to me if he is the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, for then Treebeard’s salutation of them, “Beautiful parents of beautiful children,” makes sense.

Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion notes that Christopher Tolkien thinks it unlikely that his father considered Amroth Galadriel's son while writing The Lord of the Rings, and they add: 'Treebeard probably is referring more generally to their descendants.' That could be the answer here, I think.

And looking at the Elvish a bit: in The Road Goes Ever On falmalinnar is broken down as falma-li-nnar with the indication that -li means 'many'. Compare to the stem LI as it stood in the Etymologies found in The Lost Road: 'LI- many. Q. lie people; -li pl. suffix, lin- prefix=many...' Also taurelilómea in LotR Appendix F is said to mean 'Forest-many-shadowed'. Although this could be part of 'fragments of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion', the implication again is that Quenya -li 'many'.

Vanimálion 'of fair ones' might really mean 'of many fair ones', which would imply Treebeard is being very general here. I should add that this is one specific interpretation of -li, but that noted, Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages (relatively recently published in Parma Eldalamberon 17) has at least now echoed the interpretation:

'falmali 'many waves' (PE17 p. 73)

'Q. -li, i-falma-li-nna-r, the-foam wave-many-towards-pl. ending,' (PE17 p. 127)

If 'many fair ones', this would hardly seem to refer to two children, if Amroth is meant; not to mention one child if he is not meant.

If

[Galin]

Hmm :tumbleweeds pass: ok maybe someone might like to rend and tear at my attempt... I know it's not perfect, but...

'He has dwelt in the West [Beleriand is Westerer than Lórien anyway] since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin [a very long time ago] I passed over the mountains [into Beleriand, over Ered Wethrin], and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.'

I realize for example, that if so, Galadriel passed these mountains even before the founding of these realms, which makes it a bit odd for her to put it like this -- which is why I put 'a very long time ago' after Galadriel's mention of Nargothrond and Gondolin -- meaning it might be a way to communicate the time in a very general sense.

Anyway, rend as you like... or is it 'acceptable' perhaps... or do people think there's no problem with the two passages in the first place!

Or does nobody care

[Valandil]

Galin - I don't know... I've never tried to puzzle this one out and don't have strong feelings about it right now. I'll think on it a little more.

Alcuin - I don't think Amroth was a child of Celeborn and Galadriel. I think Treebeard's statement might be both a repetition of a general saying at the time, and may also include grandchildren among 'children'. Because then, in addition to Celebrian, C & G have further 'offspring' of Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

(...) I've never tried to puzzle this one out and don't have strong feelings about it right now. I'll think on it a little more.

Thanks! no hurry (if ever). Treebeard would likely agree with this course anyway

(...) I think Treebeard's statement might be both a repetition of a general saying at the time, and may also include grandchildren among 'children'. Because then, in addition to Celebrian, C & G have further 'offspring' of Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

I was wondering about that too: it may just be something Ents generally say to Elves. Too bad JRRT didn't explain this a bit more in Words, Phrases, and Passages.