Willpower of a Ringbearer vs the Nazgul

[Gordis]

This has spun off from the Hunt for the Ring thread HERE
As the question seems of more general interest than the intricacies of the Hunt, I have decided to open a new thread for it.

Alcuin posted:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

This brings up an interesting point that we should probably discuss in another thread:

What did the Nazgûl and Sauron make of it that the Ringbearer was “a v[ery]small spiritless creature with no pride or willpower, and is filled with terror at the approach of a Nazgûl.”

Sauron and any of his adherents would have seized any desirable good from another, weaker creature in a heartbeat. Could Sauron or the Nazgûl even imagine that any of the Wise or Aragorn (once Sauron knew of him) pass up an opportunity to take the Ring for his own? Sauron knew that Saruman had already fallen to the temptation of the Ring. He must have assumed that in the Company of the Ring, the One Ring was in the possession of one of the other members – Gandalf or Aragorn, most likely – and not with any of the halflings, which explains the sarcastic abuse heaped upon Gandalf and all Hobbitry by the Mouth of Sauron at the Morannon: “What use you find in [these imps] I cannot guess; but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly.”

Allowing Gandalf to approach the Bearer surely meant, to the Nazgûl, that the wizard would claim the Ring for his own. They would be caught in conflicting allegiances and subject to his commands. It explains the perplexity of the Witch-king at Weathertop cited from “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS in RC 196 (I:208), where Tolkien says the Witch-king “now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently ‘only a Ranger’.”

[CAB]

This is the problem I brought up in my "Conspiracy Theory" thread. Just how stupid are we to believe Sauron was?

Sauron judged others by "desire, desire for power". Yet the Ring on its trip south has passed by Gandalf, Glorfindel, Elrond (and all the other powerful Elves in Rivendell), Galadriel, Celeborn (and any other powerful Elves who may have lived in Lorien). When Sauron got news of that the ring company had left Lorien, it was apparent that none of these people had taken the Ring. Could he possibly have still thought that desire for power was the only thing that guided peoples actions? Unmistakable counter-evidence was staring him right in the face. Sure, eventually he probably believed that Aragorn had obtained the Ring. Shouldn't he have wondered about his philosophy in the meantime? Also, how could a mortal have withheld the Ring from Elrond and Galadriel while within their own "nations"? Aragorn certainly didn't have time to learn how to wield the One before he accompanied Frodo to Rivendell. He had even less time before meeting Glorfindel.

How could Sauron have attained such power in Middle Earth throughout the ages with such a limited understanding of his enemies? Does his supposed limited understanding fit with his exploits as the fair Annatar? - No way. How could someone so wise and cunning still be so dense? It doesn't add up.

[Mari]

Isn't it the 'trademark' of bad people that they judge others by their own standards (as you pointed out)?
Sauron probably could not understand the reasoning of his opponents, so he filled it in with a reasoning of his own. I would assume that he thought that no one had taken the Ring yet because they thought they could retrieve it from the Hobbits at any point and that for now it was fine where it was. In Sauron's reasoning it was probably all part of a big plan to destroy him that called for his opponents to be patient for a little while longer. Or something like that.
It has nothing to do with being cunning or wise, but everything with being able to see the motives of people in an uncoloured light.
In fact: the difference between a cunning and smart person who doesn't understand someone else's motive and a stupid person who doesn't understand, is probably that the smart one will be able to think of a whole plan that his opponents are probably following according to his own way of thinking while the stupid person can't get past the inconsistency and either brushes over it or gets so puzzled that he has no choice but to think about it.

[Gordis]

I don't think Sauron was stupid, CAB.

Actually, the Ring could be used in 3 ways.

1. Wielded against him
2. Kept hidden and idle
3. Destroyed.

When by the end of November 3018 Sauron learned from the Witch-King that the Ring had entered Rivendell, he must have given the matter a serious consideration. What were the Elves going to do with it?

I believe that Sauron indeed never considered the third possibility: neither now nor before. Otherwise he would have guarded Orodruin, just in case.

But choosing between 1 and 2, he must have known that No. 2 (keeping the Ring hidden) suited the Elven-lords better. It was always their way, to wait and do as little as possible. Determined offensive action was not their way, not anymore, not by the end of the Third Age.

Sauron must have known Elves well. Seeking dominion over others was not their common vice, at least Elrond was not of that kind, it seemed: he hardly wanted to become the Dark Lord.

Keeping the Ring hidden and idle suited the Elves perfectly: they could continue to use their own Three Rings, enjoy their little paradises and forget for a while (that is for a couple millennia ) about the big evil world.

And note: as far as Sauron knew, it was exactly what the Elves were doing ever since the Ring had been lost, for they made no attempt to find it. They seemingly were doing the same since Baggins had stolen the Ring from Gollum. Sauron must have thought that it was the White Council (the fraction including Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf) that kept the Ring hidden in the Shire.

So what now with the Ring in Rivendell? Most likely the Elves would try to hide it again: either keep it in Rivendell or Lorien, or send it to the Havens, or to Valinor, or give it to Tom, or throw it into the sea or into the Anduin. It was not good for Sauron, but not altogether bad: he could manage without the Ring fairly well.

If Sauron thought for a moment that Elrond would likely try to WIELD the ring against him, a large part of the army of Mordor + the army of Dol Guldur + the uruks of Saruman would have been converging on Rivendell by the end of December. Nothing like that has happened.
When Sauron became aware of the Fellowship moving South, he must have thought that it was Lorien that was chosen as the hiding place for the Ring. I believe he was not expecting any move out of Lorien, that's why he was so surprised to "feel" the Ring near Rauros.

And IF indeed the Elves wanted to keep the Ring hidden and idle it was a smart thing to entrust it to "a very small spiritless creature with no pride or willpower,” a creature that won't be much tempted to use the Ring and won't be able to, even if tempted. Keeping the Ring made the creature expendable, eventually it would become a wraith, but then the ring could be given to another expendable creature of the same kind. Very simple, actually.

[CAB]

Once again I am unclear in my post.

Gordis, I actually agree with everything you are saying here. The problem is: How do we reconcile the statement that Sauron judged people based solely on desire for power with his obvious familiarity with (especially) Elvish thinking. They mostly lived (at least by the Third Age) peacefully. There were no great Elvish empires. How could he have thought their only real purpose was gaining more power? The answer is that he couldn't and didn't. His actions prove it. He wasn't stupid. The problem then becomes: Why couldn't he anticipate (or seemingly even imagine) that his enemies would attempt to destroy the Ring? Perhaps the real answer, in spite of what Gandalf implied, is that he knew that no one had the strength to destroy his ring (as in: Frodo couldn't destroy the Ring without Gollum's help).


Mari, what about when Sauron was playing the role of Annatar? Doesn't a trickster have to possess some understanding of his prey? Annatar certainly seemed to. He didn't use power as a lure for the ringmakers and for good reason, it wouldn't have worked as well as the lures he did use (preservation and beauty). So, if he had this understanding of Elvish thought, then how can it be said he judged people based only on desire for power?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

The problem is: How do we reconcile the statement that Sauron judged people based solely on desire for power with his obvious familiarity with (especially) Elvish thinking. They mostly lived (at least by the Third Age) peacefully. There were no great Elvish empires. How could he have thought their only real purpose was gaining more power? The answer is that he couldn't and didn't. His actions prove it.

But Elves did desire power in their own Elven way: power over time and surroundings. Not "gaining more power" - they had enough already via the Three, and exactly the sort of Power suitable for them. Surely they were keen on preserving their power so dearly paid for, keeping intact their way of life in their fenced kingdoms.

Sauron knew that Galadriel for instance was wearing the ring of HIS design, made with HIS Morgul know-how. She was wearing the Ring designed by one who killed her own brother - what could motivate her other that the desire for power?

He did know Elves well. He never supposed they would throw away their Power, diminish and go West just for the pleasure of destroying HIM. And indeed, for Galadriel it was a close call. She would have been happy to hide the One, get it lost, if only it were still possible...She even considered wielding the One, perilous as it may have been - just to keep her power and gain more.
I shudder thinking what a horrible place ME would have become, had Galadriel succumbed to her desire for Power.

[Mari]

Originally Posted by CAB

Mari, what about when Sauron was playing the role of Annatar? Doesn't a trickster have to possess some understanding of his prey? Annatar certainly seemed to. He didn't use power as a lure for the ringmakers and for good reason, it wouldn't have worked as well as the lures he did use (preservation and beauty). So, if he had this understanding of Elvish thought, then how can it be said he judged people based only on desire for power?

I'm sorry, I have not read beyond LotR and the Hobbit so I cannot answer your question. I was merely basing my reply to you on what I read in those books and psychology, because I thought it might help.
I did not say he judged them merely on desire of power though, I meant that he based everything on things he could understand. And if he couldn't understand it, he would twist it so things would fit into his perspective.

[Alcuin]

If Gordis is right, and Sauron believed the Elves were trying to hide the Ring, moving it from Rivendell to Lórien, then finding it in the Emyn Muil with a likely – and, to Sauron’s mind, appropriate! – Bearer would only have further convinced him in retrospection that the Heir of Isildur, having learned something about how it functioned (perhaps from the Elven-lords Elrond and Galadriel) had claimed the Ruling Ring for himself in Lórien and was now headed to Minas Tirith to declare himself king and take command of the City. It must be the very sort of thing that Sauron would naturally expect Isildur’s Heir to do if he possessed the Ring. After all, the Heirs of Isildur had an unresolved claim on Gondor’s throne for over 1,000 years, but they were too weak to enforce it. With the Ring, Isildur’s Heir could finally claim what was rightfully his, etc. So finding Isildur’s Heir seated on Amon Hen, looking at his new kingdom, would be the kind of thing that would fit perfectly into Sauron’s mistaken assessment of the situation.

Tolkien tells us that Aragorn and Gandalf were aware that Sauron believed that one of them possessed the Ring: that was the whole point of “The Last Debate” and the feint by the Army of Gondor to the Morannon. What is new to me is just how convincing this argument is to Sauron, and how quickly and completely he must focus upon the Heir of Isildur. As CAB points out, after his defeat at Minas Tirith, to Sauron the evidence that Aragorn had the Ring was overwhelming. That’s he why he emptied Mordor. That’s why he utterly failed to understand the mission of the hobbits in Mordor, and that’s why suddenly finding the real Ringbearer in the Sammath Naur came as a complete and total shock.

But mostly it explains the speed of the assault upon Minas Tirith: I think this was a desperate effort by Sauron to prevent Isildur’s Heir from reaching the City. And of course that he did reach the City, defeat Sauron’s far superior army, and then take immediate command of the City and all the Lords of Gondor and Rohan must, as CAB says, only further strengthen Sauron’s conviction that Aragorn has the Ruling Ring.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I shudder thinking what a horrible place ME would have become, had Galadriel succumbed to her desire for Power.

I think Galadriel nearly succumbed. She considered it: she thought hard about it, and fantasized on the possibilities. Galadriel in her little garden had the same vision of power that Sam experienced, only instead of “Samwise the Strong” it was “Galadriel the Glorious” or some such, and Frodo witnesses the throes of her Ring-inspired vision. She is permitted to return to Valinor because she rejects the temptation. I think her words, “I will diminish,” mean not only that she will give up the power and stature she enjoys in Middle-earth, not only that she will lose the additional power of the Great Ring Nenya, but that she will finally accept the fading of the Elves – but she will remain herself, and not a monster.

[CAB]

I am not at all denying that the Elves had some desire for power. I would guess that, to some extent, everyone does. But I don't think Sauron's understanding of the Elves (and probably Men too) can be explained by power alone. He had to have some knowledge of their feelings beyond just desire for power.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But Elves did desire power in their own Elven way: power over time and surroundings. Not "gaining more power" - they had enough already via the Three, and exactly the sort of Power suitable for them. Surely they were keen on preserving their power so dearly paid for, keeping intact their way of life in their fenced kingdoms.

I agree with you to an extent. But we have to be careful when speaking of, for instance, "power in their own Elven way". We can use this line of thought to describe power as almost anything: "I wish I had the power to solve this math equation." "I wish I had the power to heal my sick family member." and so on. My understanding is that Gandalf meant that Sauron judged others only by their desire for political/social power. My problem is with the "only" part.

"... let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts."

It's funny, I used this same quote to try and prove a point earlier today, and here I am arguing against it. My real problem is that Galdalf makes this statement as an absolute. I don't doubt that desire for power was high on Sauron's list of "What do I make of this?" measures. Probably it was, far and away, his greatest concern. But I think he had to have more on his mind than just this. If nothing else, his actions as Annatar can't be explained otherwise.

Originally Posted by Mari

I meant that he based everything on things he could understand. And if he couldn't understand it, he would twist it so things would fit into his perspective.

I fully agree with you here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

But we have to be careful when speaking of, for instance, "power in their own Elven way". We can use this line of thought to describe power as almost anything: "I wish I had the power to solve this math equation." "I wish I had the power to heal my sick family member." and so on. My understanding is that Gandalf meant that Sauron judged others only by their desire for political/social power. My problem is with the "only" part.

I think there is no "only" part. All the Rings were the Rings of Power, even the Three, made for preservation and beautifying.

Power is an ominous conception for Tolkien and, as I see it, it goes far beyond only political/social power. Actually to desire the latter is permitted, if you have "the right for it", like Aragorn for the throne of Gondor. What is not permitted, is to desire power unlawfully and especially to desire Power Beyond the Measure of Your Kind. That is strictly taboo. Elves were wrong to desire power over Time, Men were wrong to desire immortality and access into the World of Shadows, though both things were natural for Elves. It is just SO unfair...

[Alcuin]

The Elves were not innocent or in the right concerning the Rings of Power, as Tolkien tells us in Letter 154 to Naomi Mitchison, 25 September 1954:

...the Elves are not wholly good... because with or without [Sauron’s] assistance they were “embalmers”. They wanted to ... live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it ... even largely a desert, where they could be “artists”...

The whole temptation that Galadriel faced in her Garden with Frodo was the temptation of Power. She overcame it, and so she was permitted at last (by Gandalf) to return home to Valinor; but she refused the pardon of Eönwë at the end of the First Age because she was proud and sought power for herself.

People love to look down upon one another. Even the lowliest Elf in Middle-earth had a higher status than most Men. The Elf-lords were top of the heap in Middle-earth. In Eldamar or Tol-Eressëa, they would only be more Elves, more faded, and immigrants.

But this is off-topic already isn’t it?

[Gordis]

Back to the topic.

OK, Sauron likely believed that the worst the Elves would do with the Ring would be to hide it.

What about Gandalf? Gandalf was a Maia, like Sauron himself, and Maiar were not immune to the lure of power - even Power in the narrow sense, political/social. Saruman was an example of an Istar craving such power above all else. Why would Sauron think that Gandalf was different?

I believe that out of the Three Rings, the location of Narya was still a mystery to Sauron. So, as far as he knew, Gandalf had no reasons to wish the One lost again to be able to wield Narya. Instead Sauron believed that the only way in which the Ruling Ring could be profitable to Gandalf would be to wield it. Thus, during the Hunt, the nazgul did everything to not let Gandalf even close to the Ring.

Elrond didn't claim the Ring, he sent it to Lorien. Fine.

But here comes the company through Moria and the old Balrog is no more. Wouldn't Sauron believe that it was the One that was used? (In fact Gandalf likely used Narya, but if Sauron didn't know he had it, what could he suppose?)

Then Gandalf seemingly perishes, but in a month there he is back again, as good as new! Doesn't it remind Sauron of something? Ah yes, back after the downfall of Numenor he himself had rebuilt his body fairly quickly using the One Ring. Now Gandalf did the same, maybe faster. Disquieting? -yes.

I think Sauron believed it was Gandalf who had the Ring - right to the moment when he saw Aragorn in the Palantir. Then he became uncertain...Which one of them: the heir of Isildur or the Istar?

The Istar comes to Minas Tirith, shows himself in power to the nazgul... He has the gall to bar the Gates hindering the triumphant entrance of the Lord of Morgul come to claim his rightful legacy of the King of the Numenoreans. So, Gandalf must have the Ring…

But here comes the Heir of Isildur through the Paths of the Dead, and rumor has it he had commanded an army of ghosts. So, maybe this one has the Ring after all…

And in such uncertainty Sauron spent his days. Likely he had sent the Mouth to have a look, to probe, to look them in the eyes. Which one?

Of course, Sauron hadn't spared a single thought for some miserable Halfling caught at Ungol. An assassin with a barrow-blade, of the same kind as the one who had treacherously backstabbed the Morgul lord. He never connected this Halfling with the Ring.

[CAB]

I don't know. Sauron may have heard a detailed account of what happened on the bridge in Moria. There must have been many witnesses. There was no indication of the Ring being used there. Concerning Gandalf's return; would Sauron have known that Gandalf died? There were no witnesses to that. Also, I thought that Sauron was able to be rebodied (unaided) because the Ring survived and the Ring was Sauron. Even if Gandalf managed to gain some control of the Ring, I doubt that his bodily existence would be tied to it as Sauron's was.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I don't know. Sauron may have heard a detailed account of what happened on the bridge in Moria. There must have been many witnesses. There was no indication of the Ring being used there.

Well, didn't Gandalf use Magick at the Bridge - for all еру numerous witnesses to see? The blinding flash from his staff, the Bridge crumbles... What was done by the power of Narya could have been done by the power of the One, as it contained all the powers of 19 rings.

Concerning Gandalf's return; would Sauron have known that Gandalf died? There were no witnesses to that. Also, I thought that Sauron was able to be rebodied (unaided) because the Ring survived and the Ring was Sauron. Even if Gandalf managed to gain some control of the Ring, I doubt that his bodily existence would be tied to it as Sauron's was

Everyone saw how both Gandalf and the Balrog fell into the chasm. Everyone thought it was the end of them and the report must have gone to Sauron and Saruman.
Moreover, Sauron might have watched the battle on Zirakzigil via the Palantir, if he happened to be using it at the moment. Both opponents died.

About re-embodiment, I honestly don't know. Perhaps another Maia could have used Sauron's Ring for re-embodiment, perhaps not. At least the Ring contained enough Power to accomplish Maia re-embodiment easily, but I don't know it the power had to be specimen-specific.