Snowstorm at the Redhorn Pass

[Gordis]

A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras?
The members of the fellowship discussed the issue in LOTR, but never came to a definite answer.

There are several possible suspects:

1. The ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation)

2. Saruman.
Saruman was a maia, therefore seemingly had the necessary power to meddle with the weather. He knew exactly of the fellowship position (from crebain) and probably guessed that they were on the way to Mordor carrying the Ring (and not just carrying the Ring to Lorien). It was vital to him to turn the fellowship's path to the gap of Rohan where they would be at his mercy.
But Saruman was far away from Caradhras. Could he act at such a long distance?

3. Sauron
Sauron might have known of the fellowship leaving Imladris and, if so, must have thought that Elrond had decided to surrender the Ring to his mother in law, Galadriel. As we know, he never suspected the fellowship's ultimate goal. He was interested to prevent the Ring falling into Galadriel's hands, because with the Ring she might have overthrown him.
According to Boromir Sauron was known to cause storms in the Mountains of Shadow. But certainly it is a very great distance from Barad Dur to Caradhras. And he must have considered that closing the Redhorn Pass will force the Fellowship to take one of the other possible roots: either through Moria (risk of the Barlog getting the Ring), or through the gap of Rohan (risk of the Ring falling into Saruman's hands). Barlog was not in league with Sauron (see the tread on the subject). As for Saruman, by December 3018 Sauron knew of Saruman's treachery from the Witch-King's report at least (See "The hunt for the Ring" in UT). Therefore Sauron (if it was he who caused the storm) was facing a difficult choice but must have preferred the Barlog or Saruman as opponents to Galadriel.

4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone).

5. The Witch-King of Angmar. He might have been the nazgul that has flown over the Fellowship while they were hiking towards the Redhorn Pass. Frodo and Gandalf saw a dark shadow overhead and felt a chill. It was most probably a nazgul on the fell beast. The WK might have been returning from a spying mission to Rivendell borders or he might have been collecting some of the weaker Ringwraiths still lagging shapeless and miserable in Eriador after the disaster at the Ford. If so, the WK could have spotted the fellowship (seeing very clearly through the fell beast's eyes + at night his other senses were enhanced). Very probably he also felt the Ring's presence. He was the most capable of the nine to feel the presence of the Ring, remember he felt it from far away when Frodo and Sam were passing near Minas Morgul. The WK was known to cause snowstorms in the North during his reign in Angmar. And in winter his power was growing (See LOTR Appendices). So the WK might have landed his fell beast right atop Caradhras and made the storm in real time mode. As for his motives, he probably did not relish the idea of having to bow to a woman, so he was not going to let the Ring into Galadriel's hands. But he should have considered that if the Barlog got the Ring, Sauron would most probably send poor nazguls to get it from the Barlog... Not a nice prospect either.

6. Other (Galadriel, Elrond) But why would they?

Any ideas?

[arvedui_last_king]

1. Maybe, although mountains generally are not evil.

2. Definitely Not.

3. Maybe.

4. NOOOO!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

5. No. Firstly, the Nazgul didn't have that kind of power. Secondly, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul cross the river on their new steeds until after Isengard had fallen.

6. No.

7. There is another possibility. Pure coincidence, or chance, as we say in Middle Earth

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

5. No. Firstly, the Nazgul didn't have that kind of power. Secondly, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul cross the river on their new steeds until after Isengard had fallen.

In the Appendices it is strongly implied that the Witch-King made this storm in the Bay of Forochel that drowned YOU, O Arvedui!

‘But the Snowmen were uneasy; for they said that they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: "Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long.
...'Yet the counsel of the Lossoth was good, by chance or by foresight; for the ship had not reached the open sea when a great storm of wind arose, and came with blinding snow out of the North; and it drove the ship back upon the ice and piled ice up against it. Even the mariners of CÃ*rdan were helpless, and in the night the ice crushed the hull, and the ship foundered. So perished Arvedui Last-king, and with him the palantÃ*ri were buried in the sea. '

And what was the shadow that passed over them before they reached the Redhorn Pass?

It was the cold chill hour before the first stir of dawn, and the moon was low. Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered.
`Did you see anything pass over?' he whispered to Gandalf, who was just ahead.
`No, but I felt it, whatever it was,' he answered. `It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud.'
`It was moving fast then,' muttered Aragorn, `and not with the wind.'

[Olmer]

Gandalf.
His original plan for the Fellowship's course was to go through Moria's tunnels.
Don' forget, that if we think that Sauron and Saruman were capable to change the weather, than so and Gandalf, because, besides being Maia- the one of the lesser powers of Ainur, the powers of Nature, he had in his posession one of the major Rings of Power - Narya, the Ring of Fire.

Besides, he wanted to "stitch" Gollum to the Ringbearer, who at that time was hanging around Moria, patiently waiting for the Fellowship to come.
Crossing the mountans through the mountain pass was not included in Gandalf's scheming design, and in his own fashion he "presuaded" everyone to change the route.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Gandalf.
His original plan for the Fellowship's course was to go through Moria's tunnels.
Don' forget, that if we think that Sauron and Saruman were capable to change the weather, than so and Gandalf, because, besides being Maia- the one of the lesser powers of Ainur, the powers of Nature, he had in his posession one of the major Rings of Power - Narya, the Ring of Fire.

Besides, he wanted to "stitch" Gollum to the Ringbearer, who at that time was hanging around Moria, patiently waiting for the Fellowship to come.
Crossing the mountans through the mountain pass was not included in Gandalf's scheming design, and in his own fashion he "presuaded" everyone to change the route.

The major flaw to your theory is that Gandalf was the head of the Fellowship. He could have commanded them to go through Moria without going to such lenghts.

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Gordis

In the Appendices it is strongly implied that the Witch-King made this storm in the Bay of Forochel that drowned YOU, O Arvedui!

Touche, Gordis. Anyway, it was ICE that crushed the ship in the ICEBAY of Forochel. Imagine ice being there! And the people of Forochel were probably just superstitious. Tolkien says in his letters that the witch king had no great physical strength. His main power was fear. If he was master of the weather why didn't he command an avalance to land on top of Glorfindel in the appendices?

Originally Posted by Gordis

And what was the shadow that passed over them before they reached the Redhorn Pass?

It wasn't a Nazgul, it was the crebain. As is said somewhere, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul over the river until remaining members of the fellowship were at Dol Baran. Namarie!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The major flaw to your theory is that Gandalf was the head of the Fellowship. He could have commanded them to go through Moria without going to such lenghts.

No, he couldn't, because he had the ring which was just enhancing the power of presuasion, not the power to command.
The Ringbearer had the power of command, though he did not know about it, but Gandalf surely knew.This why he put all his power of presuasion to convince particularly the Ringbearer to take the course of his choice.
Frodo had the last word on any decisions of the Fellowship , because his choice would resolute in the ultimate directive for others.

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Frodo had the last word on any decisions of the Fellowship , because his choice would resolute in the ultimate directive for others.

[This was deleted by arvedui_last_king because it was rude, insensitive and dumb.]

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

Touche, Gordis. Anyway, it was ICE that crushed the ship in the ICEBAY of Forochel. Imagine ice being there! And the people of Forochel were probably just superstitious. Tolkien says in his letters that the witch king had no great physical strength. His main power was fear. If he was master of the weather why didn't he command an avalance to land on top of Glorfindel in the appendices?

Sure, the ice was there, but it was the storm that wasn't there before that drowned the ship. Though I agree, that probably it was only Lossoth's superstition that blamed the WK for the bad weather. People tend to blame someone for their misery.

I know the letter you refer to, but the facts show that the WK was not weak physically. He was going to take on Earnur in the battle of Fornost single-handedly - and Earnur was the strongest fighter in Gondor. He would have fought with Gandalf at the Gates of Minas Tirith. Glorfindel says that very few in Rivendell were strong enough to ride against the Nine.

Why didn't he call an avalanche on Glorfy? Because 1. there was no mountain nearby. 2, Perhaps weather-spells take time and concentration, and he was in the midst of a lost battle. 3. Glorfy was a resurrected Calaquendi elf - a being of great power.

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

It wasn't a Nazgul, it was the crebain. As is said somewhere, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul over the river until remaining members of the fellowship were at Dol Baran. Namarie!

The crebain passed over the Fellowship before that. That object was one big shadow that caused chill. Crebain caused no chill. Nay, I believe it was a nazgul.

As for Sauron not letting the nazgul over the river, that was the explanation the nazgul present at Part Galen gave to his orcs, when he sent them alone into Rohan. I think it was simply because he had no fell beast and hated to cross the river by boat - they all, save the WK, feared water.

By the way, this very same nazgul had his fell beast killed when he flew over the Fellowship who were on the West bank. So he had been over the river already.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

I think you have been watching too much of the movie.
IMO there are three possibilities for what caused the storm: Sauron, the malice if Redhorn or nature and coincedence.

By the way, in the movie you refer to, Frodo was a simple additional package with tearful frightened eyes, pathethic being that decided nothing.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

No, he couldn't, because he had the ring which was just enhancing the power of presuasion, not the power to command.
The Ringbearer had the power of command, though he did not know about it, but Gandalf surely knew.This why he put all his power of presuasion to convince particularly the Ringbearer to take the course of his choice.
Frodo had the last word on any decisions of the Fellowship , because his choice would resolute in the ultimate directive for others.

Uhm, I am not sure I agree...

Or perhaps I misunderstood you?

You mean the power of command given Frodo by the Ruling Ring over the wielder of one of the Three? - That he could hardly have before he claimed and mastered the One.

Or, do you mean, that though Gandalf was the nominal leader of the Fellowship, Frodo's wishes as the one entrusted with the Ring would overrule his command?

[Lotesse]

Arvedui, please do not throw the word "ridiculous" out like that, in reference to a well-respected fellow mooter's idea in a post. Olmer has a lot of respect around here, and it's not too cool seeing his opinions being touted as "ridiculous." Just sayin'. But welcome to Entmoot.

NOW, I rather fancy the idea of it having been the Witch King of Angmar who flew over like that, causing the chill and the shadow. I need to think & ponder a bit more on these ideas, especially since I've always wondered the same thing myself about who really caused Caradhras' storm, so... but I love the thought of it having been our Witch King.

[arvedui_last_king]

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence, just that I disagreed.

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, this very same nazgul had his fell beast killed when he flew over the Fellowship who were on the West bank. So he had been over the river already.

Actually, wasn't the nazgul still flying over the east bank when Legolas shot him down?

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, in the movie you refer to, Frodo was a simple additional package with tearful frightened eyes, pathethic being that decided nothing.

Actually, Gandalf asked Frodo in the movie which way to go and Frodo replied "We go through the mines." Again, no offence intended, I'm not really that kind of person

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

Actually, Gandalf asked Frodo in the movie which way to go and Frodo replied "We go through the mines." Again, no offence intended.

Really? I trust your word on that. Then, IMHO, it strangely contrasts with the general impression of movieverse Frodo.

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

Actually, wasn't the nazgul still flying over the east bank when Legolas shot him down?.

No, they were on the West bank, near Sarn Gebir, and the nazgul came from the South and flew almost overhead:

`Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.
Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore.

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Really? I trust your word on that. Then, IMHO it strangely contrasts with the general impression of movieverse Frodo.

Yes, it's true. It happens just after a large amount of snow falls on the company

Originally Posted by Gordis

No, they were on the West bank, near Sarn Gebir, and the nazgul came from the South and flew almost overhead:

Well it's practically not over the west bank is it now?
Do you have The History of Middle-Earth? As I recall, Tolkien originally envisaged that this was a Nazgul, but then changed his conceptions without removing the reference to the Nazgul. My copy of The Lord of the Rings: A Readers Companion agrees with me.
There, I admit defeat.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Uhm, I am not sure I agree...

You mean the power of command given Frodo by the Ruling Ring over the wielder of one of the Three?
Or, do you mean, that though Gandalf was the nominal leader of the Fellowship, Frodo's wishes as the one entrusted with the Ring would overrule his command?

Oh, sure you don't agree! But it's a beauty in our disagreements: in our efforts to persuade an opponent we are digging deep and discovering new elements in the complexity of Tolkien's narrative.

Yes, he was a nominal leader. Remember, from the beginning he was not even planning to go with the Ringbearer, making excuse that it's not for him to decide. But, I guess, Elrond also was not wholeheartedly sure that the Ringbearer woun't stray from the designated path. And, just as a precaution, the person with domineering ability to persuade was sent along with the rest of the Fellowship.

Frodo would definately overrule his command, if he would be not so naive and trusting and would have a little bit more information besides what he have got from Gandalf. And the Grey Wizard would be powerless to contradict Frodo's decisions, because even if the Three had abilities to command, the One can overrule theirs power. This is why Gandalf went into such pain to convince Bilbo to leave the Ring behind instead of just ordering him to do so.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Gordis

A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras?
The members of the fellowship discussed the issue in LOTR, but never came to a definite answer.

There are several possible suspects:

Originally Posted by Gordis

1. The ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation)

Caradhras is the most likely cause. IMO. The simplest explanation is often the best explanation. (no always correct, but I think the best)

Originally Posted by Gordis

2. Saruman.
Saruman was a maia, therefore seemingly had the necessary power to meddle with the weather. He knew exactly of the fellowship position (from crebain) and probably guessed that they were on the way to Mordor carrying the Ring (and not just carrying the Ring to Lorien). It was vital to him to turn the fellowship's path to the gap of Rohan where they would be at his mercy.
But Saruman was far away from Caradhras. Could he act at such a long distance?

Saruman, I think, is more likely a candidate than Sauron. I think he could manage the distance, if he really wanted to let it snow.

Originally Posted by Gordis

3. Sauron
Sauron might have known of the fellowship leaving Imladris and, if so, must have thought that Elrond had decided to surrender the Ring to his mother in law, Galadriel. As we know, he never suspected the fellowship's ultimate goal. He was interested to prevent the Ring falling into Galadriel's hands, because with the Ring she might have overthrown him.
According to Boromir Sauron was known to cause storms in the Mountains of Shadow. But certainly it is a very great distance from Barad Dur to Caradhras. And he must have considered that closing the Redhorn Pass will force the Fellowship to take one of the other possible roots: either through Moria (risk of the Barlog getting the Ring), or through the gap of Rohan (risk of the Ring falling into Saruman's hands). Barlog was not in league with Sauron (see the tread on the subject). As for Saruman, by December 3018 Sauron knew of Saruman's treachery from the Witch-King's report at least (See "The hunt for the Ring" in UT). Therefore Sauron (if it was he who caused the storm) was facing a difficult choice but must have preferred the Barlog or Saruman as opponents to Galadriel.

Possible. Though,I would think it unlikely.

Originally Posted by Gordis

4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone).

I think that you answer your own question here. I think it is unlikely that the Balrog caused this problem.

Originally Posted by Gordis

5. The Witch-King of Angmar. He might have been the nazgul that has flown over the Fellowship while they were hiking towards the Redhorn Pass. Frodo and Gandalf saw a dark shadow overhead and felt a chill. It was most probably a nazgul on the fell beast. The WK might have been returning from a spying mission to Rivendell borders or he might have been collecting some of the weaker Ringwraiths still lagging shapeless and miserable in Eriador after the disaster at the Ford. If so, the WK could have spotted the fellowship (seeing very clearly through the fell beast's eyes + at night his other senses were enhanced). Very probably he also felt the Ring's presence. He was the most capable of the nine to feel the presence of the Ring, remember he felt it from far away when Frodo and Sam were passing near Minas Morgul. The WK was known to cause snowstorms in the North during his reign in Angmar. And in winter his power was growing (See LOTR Appendices). So the WK might have landed his fell beast right atop Caradhras and made the storm in real time mode. As for his motives, he probably did not relish the idea of having to bow to a woman, so he was not going to let the Ring into Galadriel's hands. But he should have considered that if the Barlog got the Ring, Sauron would most probably send poor nazguls to get it from the Barlog... Not a nice prospect either.

I do not think this is likely. From the text that you reference, there is at least some support for your theory. I still do not think it is likely though.

Originally Posted by Gordis

6. Other (Galadriel, Elrond) But why would they?

JRRT comes to mind. Probably to move the plot along.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Arvedui

Actually, Gandalf asked Frodo in the movie which way to go and Frodo replied "We go through the mines." ... Yes, it's true. It happens just after a large amount of snow falls on the company
Again, no offence intended, I'm not really that kind of person

I don't doubt your words. I am not fond of the movies, so my recollection of them is dim. And I am not too eager to go refresh my memory.
And I see, Arvedui, that you are really a nice person.

Originally Posted by Arvedui

Well it's practically not over the west bank is it now?

There was a trap set downstream at Part Galen - some Mordor orcs (40?) were hidden on the West bank, along with Saruman's lads. I often wondered how did they cross the River? Really it must be incongruous to suppose that the nazgul carried them one by one on his beast. Like a taxi... I believe they crossed by boat. But all that is not important: even if the nazgul flew over the West Bank it was but a small breach of Sauron's order not to cross the River. I doubt whether this order existed or not. May be it was just a tale for the orcs.

Originally Posted by Arvedui

Do you have The History of Middle-Earth? As I recall, Tolkien originally envisaged that this was a Nazgul, but then changed his conceptions without removing the reference to the Nazgul. My copy of The Lord of the Rings: A Readers Companion agrees with me.

Yes, I have the "Return of the Shadow" and the "Treason of Isengard" where the drafts for this part are. But I have never read " A Readers Companion". I have no time to check the place, but most likely you are right.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Oh, sure you don't agree! But it's a beauty in our disagreements: in our efforts to persuade an opponent we are digging deep and discovering new elements in the complexity of Tolkien's narrative.

Well, thanks, though I have an impression that I agree with you more often than most of the others here.

Originally Posted by Olmer

But, I guess, Elrond also was not wholeheartedly sure that the Ringbearer woudn't stray from the designated path. And, just as a precaution, the person with domineering ability to persuade was sent along with the rest of the Fellowship.

I know it is canon that Narya's power was to kindle hearts. But, really, look at the facts. Saruman was the most persuasive of the Wizards, not Gandalf. Saruman could persuade even a nazgul (UT). Saruman persuades the White Counsil several times, beating Gandalf to it. Only once did Gandy overrule him, in the matter of Dol-Guldur, but it seems that finally Saruman allowed himself to be persuaded. Persuading humans? Let us take Gondor. Saruman was in high esteem there, Gandalf was frowned upon. In Rohan he was called "stormcrow". Gandalf had been much involved in Arnor affairs, but what unity was there ever achieved? All the three Arnor states were constantly at each other's throats, and had fallen before Angmar one by one. Elves helped only when they themselves were threatened. Not much!
The only real "persuasion" he displayed was with hobbits and dwarves, sending Bilbo on his Quest and making Frodo volunteer to carry the Ring (unless it was Eru himself who helped). When he made Bilbo leave the Ring to Frodo, it seems his "persuasion" was heavily enhanced by an open display of power.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Frodo would definitely overrule his command, if he would be not so naive and trusting and would have a little bit more information besides what he have got from Gandalf. And the Grey Wizard would be powerless to contradict Frodo's decisions, because even if the Three had abilities to command, the One can overrule theirs power. This is why Gandalf went into such pain to convince Bilbo to leave the Ring behind instead of just ordering him to do so.

Not yet, Olmer. Frodo has to grow much stronger mentally to use the Ruling Ring command the wielders of the Three:

`I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, `a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them? '
`You have not tried,' she said. `Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

]Saruman, I think, is more likely a candidate than Sauron. I think he could manage the distance, if he really wanted to let it snow.

I don't think Saruman had the power... I know, he was a Maia, but look at the later scene: the orcs are carrying Merry and Pip into Orthank, they are much weakened by the sun. Saruman, most likely, watches them in his Palantir. So, why couldn't he send them clouds, or rain? Sure it must be easier than making a storm at a great distance?

Of course, if Saruman doesn't have that power, then neither does Gandalf (unless it is the power of Narya), nor the Witch-King. That leaves us with Sauron alone (or Caradhras).

[arvedui_last_king]

I doubt Sauron was responsible, because wasn't he originally one of the people of Aule? Tolkien never says that he had any intrest in the air like Manwe did. Saruman was also chosen to go to middle earth by Aule, so he isn't a windy person either. As for Gandalf, he was supposed never to reveal his power: he didn't even want to summon up some fire on Caradhras, so I doubt he would have caused the storm.