Post-LOTR Second Round

[Grey_Wolf]

I have not read the beginnings of the attempt by Tolkien to do a new story.

It could only, IMO, be aping of the former tale and a retelling of portions of it.

There is not much that would warrant such an endevour.

The Ring-bearers are gone and so are the dominant Istari.

The elves are mostly gone from Middle-Earth too, so a basis for a continued story is lost there as well.

There could, on the other hand, be the tale of Aragorn and Arwen and their descendants.

As well as the story concerning the new king of Rohan, Eomer and his descendants.

A source of a tale might just be the romance and married life of Faramir and Eowyn and their adventures.

What is your views on the subject?

[Earniel]

Are you referring to the short bit (I think it was called 'A new Shadow', not sure) in the HoME series? If so it is not really a sequel to LoTR, but rather a new story in the fourth aera, set way after Aragorn's reign.

The only known character is, if I recall correctly, Bergil, the son of Beregrond who showed Pippin around in Minas Tirith. But he's now an aged man. I believe Tolkien decided not to pursue the story since it would be a thriller and he didn't want to write one.

[Grey_Wolf]

Quite right, Earn. Thrillers were not, indeed, within the realm of Tolkien's writings.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think it would have been interesting to see some more of it, despite Tolkien's reluctance to continue. The blurred lines between Orc and Man that began with Saruman's eugenic dabblings appeared to continue into the fourth age, and a sort of "dark ages" was apparently imminent.

I would have been interested to see how the New Shadow was opposed by the Men of Rohan and Gondor, and the extent to which the Hobbits involved themselves in the daily affairs of the world.

Ah well. I guess we'll never know unless there are some manuscripts buried somewhere that haven't seen the light of day yet.

[Earniel]

I don't know if thrillers were outside Tolkien's field to writing ability. I found the set-up chapter of A New Shadow creepy enough. It's just that I don't think he'd enjoy writing it, just as I think I wouldn't have really wanted to read it.

The idea of LoTR is that there is a happy end for the world. The battle's won, some things were lost but some were ultimatedly saved and appearing to have a bright future ahead of them. The fourth age is to be glorious for men. The idea that evil is already again rearing it's head during Eldarion's reign is... disappointing in a way. It would (IMO) make LoTR less epic in a way.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The idea of LoTR is that there is a happy end for the world. The battle's won, some things were lost but some were ultimatedly saved and appearing to have a bright future ahead of them. The fourth age is to be glorious for men. The idea that evil is already again rearing it's head during Eldarion's reign is... disappointing in a way. It would (IMO) make LoTR less epic in a way.

Yea, the Fourth Age was supposed to be pure bliss... But realistically I fail to see how the Return of the King could have been beneficial for Gondor.

Let us face it: when the Elendili established Gondor and Arnor, they brought progress and high knowledge of Numenor to the rustic, undeveloped peoples.

Aragorn, on the other hand, personifies reaction, return to sources, to what had been three millennia ago. Maybe it had been good - but it is long-long past, and best forgotten. All these swords-that-were-broken. Elendilmirs, Elessars, are good to impress Sauron and Elves, also the unquiet Dead of Dunharrow - but for an ordinary Man it is dusty rubbish.

Moreover, Aragorn was brought up by Elves, he is intimately connected to them - and the Elves are, by their very nature, "embalmers". The alien, Elven moral code, Elven way of thinking, Elven musty faith would be imposed on the long-suffering mankind.

And the new dynasty...ohh, what a can of worms. Can you imagine the implications of this new union with Elves? The next King, Eldarion, is half-Elven, deeming himself so very much above your average Man. Whom would he marry? I bet one of the Dunedain of the North, as only there in some lines the "high blood" of Numenor runs undiluted. Do you think the "less pure" Gondorian girls and their parents would be happy? I guess it would immediately lead to some animosity towards the Northerners. And dilution of the blood leads to shorter life-span, so it is quite vital to choose the brides for the Kings well. I guess in a few generations a law would be made: not to marry outside the line of Telcontar. (The similar thing had happened in Numenor already.) The abyss between the Royal line and their subjects would become even deeper. That much is for equality.

Aragorn's line represents anything but progress and freedom and equality, and I doubt the Gondorians would be happy with it for long.

I don't even start to talk about the peoples who lost the War of the Ring: populous Harad, Khand etc. For how long would THEY be content licking their wounds?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I agree, Earniel. Perhaps if the story was to be set a millennium after the LotR it wouldn't have the same effect but coming so soon only serves to reinforce the idea that evil can never be completely defeated, only beaten back for a time.

Gordis, you're such a Nazgul, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Gordis, you're such a Nazgul, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Mordor always stands for Liberté Égalité Fraternité - maybe not.

At least it stands for progress and equal opportunities.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yea, the Fourth Age was supposed to be pure bliss... But realistically I fail to see how the Return of the King could have been beneficial for Gondor.

Well, I doubt the fourth age was better for every single person alive, however I do think humanity as a whole would prosper again, ready to forge its own path, free from Elvish and Sauron's influences. Those days were passed. You might call this overly optimistic, but the story IMO calls for it.

So I disagree with the rather bleak picture you paint of Elessar and his successor. Being raised by Elves is one thing, but the Elves' time is ended for everyone to see. I sincerely doubt Aragorn intended or even wanted to resurrect that. I can't speak of the much later kings, of course, I'm pretty sure things turned out very ugly at some point in the future. We're human after all, and at some point the world is supposed to turn in the one we known today. But at the time of Aragorn or Eldarion? Nah, I don't see it.

Realistically, would men fall back within two generations back to evil worship? It remains possible, but it does not have to be. And I think Tolkien didn't want it to be, and that that's one of the reasons why he stopped the story where he did.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Mordor always stands for Liberté Égalité Fraternité - maybe not.

At least it stands for progress and equal opportunities.

Your Mordor with progress and equal opportunities is still an orc-eat-orc world. I most definitely wouldn't want to live there. (I'd be on the menu before I even notice.)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Your Mordor with progress and equal opportunities is still an orc-eat-orc world. I most definitely wouldn't want to live there. (I'd be on the menu before I even notice.)

Nice crispy Elves with a side of tatters!

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And the new dynasty...ohh, what a can of worms. Can you imagine the implications of this new union with Elves? The next King, Eldarion, is half-Elven, deeming himself so very much above your average Man. Whom would he marry? I bet one of the Dunedain of the North, as only there in some lines the "high blood" of Numenor runs undiluted. Do you think the "less pure" Gondorian girls and their parents would be happy? I guess it would immediately lead to some animosity towards the Northerners. And dilution of the blood leads to shorter life-span, so it is quite vital to choose the brides for the Kings well. I guess in a few generations a law would be made: not to marry outside the line of Telcontar. (The similar thing had happened in Numenor already.) The abyss between the Royal line and their subjects would become even deeper. That much is for equality.

I don't know - I see Aragorn as being quite forward thinking - I mean, he was only (I think, I can't remeber exactly) one of three men to truely love an elf, let alone be able to marry one. I think that he would encouage his son to marry whoever he wanted to - I mean, he's not exactly dumb or anything - he knows that there are very pure Numerorians left in Middle Earth, and I can't remeber, but is his line pure up to himself?

As for your last point, I believe it says in the Appendices somewhere (although I can't seem to find it) that Aragorn gave the men who fought with Sauron their own lands to rule as they wished, as well as self-governance.

If anybody could find the relevent quote, that would be swesome.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi568

I don't know - I see Aragorn as being quite forward thinking - I mean, he was only (I think, I can't remeber exactly) one of three men to truely love an elf, let alone be able to marry one. I think that he would encouage his son to marry whoever he wanted to - I mean, he's not exactly dumb or anything - he knows that there are very pure Numerorians left in Middle Earth, and I can't remeber, but is his line pure up to himself?

How would you know how many Men had "truly loved an elf" without being loved back? I guess Val is right joking that almost every male of the line of Valandil was in his turn infatuated with Arwen.
Loving the highest born Lady to be found in Middle-Earth (barring her grandma Galadriel, that is) is hardly a show of humility and free-thinking.

And yes, Aragorn's line is pure - for about 40 generations they have NEVER married a non-Dunedain woman. The only one not exactly pure-blood was Firiel of Gondor. That is the main pride of the Northern line and something that made their claim to the throne solid. I doubt Aragorn would change this rule after ascending to the throne. And there is a practical side to it: pure-bloods live longer.

[jammi567]

....Damn, you're good. I can't think of a good come back to that.

....Actually, I've thought of something. The times are changing, and being about 35ish comparactivly to the rest of us, he's basically still in his prime. I don't think he would want to be be seen to be out of the times. I mean, sure, being a ranger fighting for the future of the world does put a damper on that kind of thing, but it doesn't mean that he didn't have those thoughts as he was going about on the quest.

And it would make it a little unfair on his son:

Son: So, who are you going to marry when you grow up?
Mate: That lovely girl, third house from the blacksmiths. She has such a lovely voice. What about you?
Son: Nobody. I'm being forced to marry some girl from the family in Arnor. I don't know who she is, and thee's the fact that marrying within your family is a little sick.
Mate: What does your Mother think about it?
Son: She wants me to marry who I wat, but Father's so uppity. Say's it's 'tradition' that I marry a pure-blood Numerorian.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

but it doesn't mean that [Aragorn] didn't have those thoughts as he was going about on the quest.

We have not a slightest indication that he did have this kind of thoughts.

And it would make it a little unfair on his son

It has been "unfair" in exactly the same way for every King's heir since the times of Tar-Ancalime, that is for about 5300 years. Yes, that long.
Once an exeption had been made for Valacar. Result: civil war, the loss of the Capital city Osgiliath, the loss of the Palantir, the loss of Umbar, the death of many in the King's line.
Aragorn was not the kind of ruler to come and change time-honored old customs: exactly the opposite, in fact.