Turin & Hurin

[arvedui_last_king]

Between them they destroyed Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin in 15 years. It just shows that you should avoid getting on the wrong end of a curse of morgoth.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

but out of those great sorrows came good also, just think what might have happened if glorfindel had not died and then came back in the third age.
if glorfindel had not died in the first age, and had gone to valinor, frodo might never have made it to rivendell, sauron (or maybe Wikkie) would have gained the ring, unless of course Arwen rode out to meet aragorn and the hobbits (die PJ )

[Landroval]

However, if it weren't for Hurin to guard the Pass of Sirion, then there would have been no Earendil, no war of wrath, etc; as Huor said in "Of the Fifth Battle", Silmarillion:

Then Hurin spoke to Turgon, saying:
- Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.
But Turgon answered:
- Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.
Then Huor spoke and said:
- Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!

And let us not forget which mighty beast did Turin bring down . All in all, Melkor lost in this deal.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes I agree with Landroval. It was also Hurin who showed Morgoth that not all men feared him. Up to that point men had done as Morgoth had said and because of that men seemed to think they were cursed (Athrabeth).

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

but out of those great sorrows came good also, just think what might have happened if glorfindel had not died and then came back in the third age.
if glorfindel had not died in the first age, and had gone to valinor, frodo might never have made it to rivendell, sauron (or maybe Wikkie) would have gained the ring, unless of course Arwen rode out to meet aragorn and the hobbits (die PJ )

All Frodo needed was a good horse. Glorfy himself did nothing. That's why PJ had substituted him for Arwen, without much of a problem .(NOT that I approve of it, mind ye!)

I believe, Glorfindel could remain in Mandos without great consequences for ME

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

Between them they destroyed Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin in 15 years. It just shows that you should avoid getting on the wrong end of a curse of morgoth.

You can't blame Doriath on either Túrin or Húrin. Doriath was Thingol's fault.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

All Frodo needed was a good horse. Glorfy himself did nothing. That's why PJ had substituted him for Arwen, without much of a problem .(NOT that I approve of it, mind ye!)

I believe, Glorfindel could remain in Mandos without great consequences for ME

I disagree; the nazgul can instill great fear even in animals; if it wasn't for Glorfindel's horse and intervention, I doubt Frodo would have gotten away:

- Ride forward! Ride! cried Glorfindel to Frodo.

He did not obey at once, for a strange reluctance seized him. Checking the horse to a walk, he turned and looked back. The Riders seemed to sit upon their great steeds like threatening statues upon a hill, dark and solid, while all the woods and land about them receded as if into a mist. Suddenly he knew in his heart that they were silently commanding him to wait. Then at once fear and hatred awoke in him. His hand left the bridle and gripped the hilt of his sword, and with a red flash he drew it.

- Ride on! Ride on! cried Glorfindel, and then loud and clear he called to the horse in the elf-tongue: noro lim, noro lim, Asfaloth!

At once the white horse sprang away and sped like the wind along the last lap of the Road

From Flight to the Ford, FotR.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

All Frodo needed was a good horse. Glorfy himself did nothing. That's why PJ had substituted him for Arwen, without much of a problem .(NOT that I approve of it, mind ye!)

I believe, Glorfindel could remain in Mandos without great consequences for ME

yes but glorfindel's horse was able to withstand the nazgul's horses, and outpace them, there would be few others able to do that, shadowfax definitely, maybe some few others of the mearas or of elven horses

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

You can't blame Doriath on either Túrin or Húrin. Doriath was Thingol's fault.

Húrin brought the cursed treasure to Doriath that resulted in Thingol and the Dwarves fighting over the Nauglamir. And I wasn't blaming either of them. I was blaming Melkor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So surely it was Thingol and the Dwarves fault. If not then why not include Beren in the above list?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

surely, you can just blame everything on Eru? or at the least manwe and melkor's sibling rivalry?!!

[jammi567]

remind me how either hurin or turin managed to bring down gondolin

[Landroval]

Hurin desired to see Turgon, after his release; unaware that he was being watched, he went to the Old Way of Escape and called on the king.

Originally Posted by Of the ruin of Doriath, Silmarillion

Yet there were ears that heard the words that Hurin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Hurin achieved.

The rest is (sad) history.

[jammi567]

thanks for reminding me . is that quote from the HoME books because i don't remember it being in the silmarillion.

[Landroval]

It's in the Silmarillion alright, chapter 22 .

[jammi567]

have just re-read it and it is in there. thanks for reminding me