Did Vardamir Nolimon have a choice?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

While I was recently reading the Sil, I read the part where it said that Elrond and his children had the choice of whether they were counted among the elves or among Mortal Men. This lead me to wonder whether or not Elros' child/ren had a choice aswell, or whether, as they were already considered as mortal men, they did not.
Thoughts?

[jammi567]

i think because they are men, they don't get a choice because it goes against their nature.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What do you mean by 'their nature'? The fact that they are mortal? But elves are immortal. Would becoming mortal not be going against 'their nature'?

[jammi567]

Yes. Luthein also had that choice.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that can be counted as a valid example as Luthien was an exception to most rules concerning death.

[Gordis]

I am pretty sure none of Elros's descendants has ever had the choice. Choosing mortality, Elros made the choice for all his line.


But I wonder, did Dior have this choice? Or did he die so young that he was not offered it yet?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that Dior was given the choice and told immortality. Remeber that Aragorn marrying Arwen was accounted to be the third Union of the Eldar and Edain. Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril and Aragorn and Arwen. But why would Dior get the choice but Vardamir not? Both of his parents were mortal as were Vardamirs and his grandparents immortal, as were Vardamirs.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I think that Dior was given the choice and told immortality. Remeber that Aragorn marrying Arwen was accounted to be the third Union of the Eldar and Edain. Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril and Aragorn and Arwen. But why would Dior get the choice but Vardamir not? Both of his parents were mortal as were Vardamirs and his grandparents immortal, as were Vardamirs.

I am not sure the count is right. There was this Dol Amroth union of Mithrellas and Angelimar?, wasn't it?

And Dior marrying Nimloth could be overlooked as well.

By the way, you are right, when Dior was born both his parents were mortal. So, I would say, he was also mortal, only he was too young to find that out...

As for the Choice, it was given to Earendil and Elwings line later, when they brought a Silmaril to Valinor:

It is told among the Elves that after Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?' But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally the Noldor, who went wilfully into exile, may not return hither.'

But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'

So Luthien and Beren's choice was a one-time exception, while for Earendil and Elwing the rule was made, applicable only to their sons. So, the children of Mithrellas were never given the Choice, not any other half-elf, if one was ever born outside the Earendil-Elwing line. They were mortal by default.

Therefore I think Dior had no choice, neither did Elros's children, sons of mortals. Elrond's line had the choice, as they were still half-elven, though they potentially had the life of Elves.

Discriminative, eh?

[Landroval]

So, I would say, he was also mortal, only he was too young to find that out...

I would say this is a matter of debate.

Originally Posted by Of the ruin of Doriath

But Dior returned no answer to the sons of Feanor; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came at unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the Thousand Caves; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf. There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest.

The bolded passage could mean that one of the slain elves was Dior. Dior's other name is Eruhil, Heir of Elu and he indeed came to rule Doriath. Would the elves have accepted a human ruler?
Furthermore, if we analyse this quote from of the Voyage of Earendil and the war of wrath:

And from these brethren alone has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda; for they were the sons of Elwing, Dior's daughter, Luthien's son, child of Thingol and Melian; and Earendil their father was the son of Idril Celebrindal, Turgon's daughter of Gondolin.

the "divine strain" could only come through Dior.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Landroval

the "divine strain" could only come through Dior.

yes, it could only come through him, but he could still be human and mortal, and rule Doriath because he was an heir of Thingol and Melian, and yet, there was no one to rule the elves who wanted to remain there. so...

[Landroval]

Oh well :

Originally Posted by The names of Finwe's descendants, Late writings, HoME XII

Itarilde (Idril) daughter of Turgon was the mother of Earendil; but his father was a Man of the Atani, of the House of Hador: Tuor son of Huor. Earendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Luthien Tinuviel daughter of King Elu Thingol.
...
Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil (Half-elven), but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.

There are other refferences to "Dior the elf" in previous HoME's, but I guess that the later the refference, the better.

[Gordis]

Of course Dior was half-elven, by blood.
And the sons of Mithrellas and Angelimar were half-elven.
But this says nothing about his ultimate fate after death.

Dior's death predated the decision of Manwe re: Earendil and Elwing. I still don't think he was given a choice, just a Gift of Eru and off he went...

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Of course Dior was half-elven, by blood.
And the sons of Mithrellas and Angelimar were half-elven.
But this says nothing about his ultimate fate after death.

Dior's death predated the decision of Manwe re: Earendil and Elwing. I still don't think he was given a choice, just a Gift of Eru and off he went...

So if he wasn't given a choice, and yet was half elven-half man, then did he die or live on?

p.s am reading later HoME books now for only the second time.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

So if he wasn't given a choice, and yet was half elven-half man, then did he die or live on?
.

The problem is that he was KILLED rather early in life (I don't remember at what age, though).

[jammi567]

oh yeh, forgot about that bit.

[The Telcontarion]

The choice was given to the half elvin. It seemed to me Elros had already chosen to be accounted among men, therefore unless his Queen was an elf, his children would be human. Elronds children were peredhel (half elvin) and they would have been even if there mother was not an elf because Elrond chose to be Elvin, though he still had the genes of man; therefore the choice would come before them one day as well.

It would seem to me that Elros no longer has the genes of elves once his choice was made, so why did Elrond still have the genes of men. OOOHhhhh!!! Or could it be that if Elron's wife was human, his children would be human as well, even though he would still be immortal.

[ecthelion]

I don't remember it anywhere written that death was forbidden to the elves, although it was not usual that they would die, and so part from their kindred.
For the men it is explicitly said by manwe, that it is not for him to withdraw the gift of Iluvatar from men. For the elves there is no corresponding saying (as far as I remember, please anybody correct me if I'm wrong).
So the children of Elrond could still choose to be counted among men and die.
So, if my reasoning is correct, it is only with those deemed men that they need to be given the choice.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

I don't remember it anywhere written that death was forbidden to the elves, although it was not usual that they would die, and so part from their kindred.
For the men it is explicitly said by manwe, that it is not for him to withdraw the gift of Iluvatar from men. For the elves there is no corresponding saying (as far as I remember, please anybody correct me if I'm wrong).
So the children of Elrond could still choose to be counted among men and die.
So, if my reasoning is correct, it is only with those deemed men that they need to be given the choice.

Aaaaaaahhhh!!!!!

[Ellf]

Telcontar...
I am impressed. This is good stuff. The best I've read so far.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

I don't remember it anywhere written that death was forbidden to the elves, although it was not usual that they would die, and so part from their kindred.

As far as I know, there was nothing about death and the Elves; it was merely that they could not pass beyond the Circles of Ea, as Men did. They were bound to this world, so that if they died, their spirits remained there.

Gordis: I know this was written a long time ago, but I just wanted to point out that Mithrellas was a Silvan Elf, not an Elda; as far as I know, the number was to apply to the marriages of Eldar and Edain, and I think I recall that it is written that there were more unions between Men and lesser Elves.