God in Middle-Earth

[Aragorn]

Okay, this whole thing started during a conversation between me and Boggy (which I'll C&P later in this post) when she was trying to translate my name into Quenya. My first name is Mike, which (according to her), means 'who is like God'. When it came to translate God into Quenya, she asked me I preffered Iluvatar or Eru. Because I'm a really picky guy, the following conversation took place...(NOTE: to protect the innocent, all ramblings have been edited out of the AIM convo, and the screen names have been changed to regular names to avoid confusion) (EDIT NOTE: because the AIM convo was ridiculously confusing, Boggy wrote it out, pretending to be me. I'm not sure why )

Elemmire and I were having an argument on AIM which quickly became a discussion of the nature of ME’s Eru, and whether or not he could be equated with God. This was my side of the argument:

Based on Iluvatar’s role in the Silmarillion, I would not necessarily call him ‘God.’
Firstly, to the elves he wasn't God...he was Eru. There is no God in Quenya! GOD is one of OUR words! In any case, Eru seems more akin to the main Hindu god Brahman, because in the Hindu belief system there are multiple 'Gods'.

Elemmire argued that the Ainur are more like angels, but I disagree, because in Christian mythology, the angels never DID anything to the Earth. But in the Silmarillion, it specifically states that each Ainur played a part in the creation of Middle-Earth. Like Ulmo made the rivers and Yavanna made the trees and flowers and stuff.

So what do you all think? Does Iluvatar mean God, or doesn't it? Or do you have the true word for God in Quenya, and are you going to be a party pooper and abruptly end this debate by casually slipping it into the conversation ( )?

[Elemmírë]

I wrote it out pretending to be you because the idea of summarising an AIM conversation seemed beyond you

Alright, so that was Aragorn's side of the story.

According to my reading of the situation, however, despite the similarities presented by Aragorn, it's also definitely different from the Hindu version, where the polytheistic gods, according to my understanding, are aspects of Brahman, who is according to at least one dictionary article I read, believed to be more of a force, an "ultimate, unchanging reality, composed of pure being and consciousness." The Ainur, however, do not seem to be aspects of Iluvatar.

Moreover, it seems to me that since Tolkien was Catholic, Eru would have been based on a Christian God.

[Lizra]

Make up your mind!

[Aragorn]

Read through it!

The power of Christ compels you!
The power of Christ compels you!
The power of Christ-this isn't working is it?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

It's also definitely different from the Hindu version, where the polytheistic gods, according to my understanding, are aspects of Brahman, who is according to at least one dictionary article I read, believed to be more of a force, an "ultimate, unchanging reality, composed of pure being and consciousness." The Ainur, however, do not seem to be aspects of Iluvatar.

Moreover, it seems to me that since Tolkien was Catholic, Eru would have been based on a Christian God.

Yeah, I know that its different from the Hindu religion. Of course it is. Its an original religion, thought up by Tolkien. I'm just saying that, in my view of it, it is more akin to the Hindu religion than to the Christian religion.

And I also disagree that Tolkien's Catholocism had much influence on it. Tolkien was a smart guy, and I think he was smart enough to seperate his own beliefs from the beliefs he made up.

[BeardofPants]

My thoughts on this are that since Tolkien has repeatedly stated that Middle-Earth is based on our current world (aren't we in the seventh age or something?), that Illuvater IS the christian God.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

My thoughts on this are that since Tolkien has repeatedly stated that Middle-Earth is based on our current world (aren't we in the seventh age or something?), that Illuvater IS the christian God.

Of course, that'd be assuming that a Christian God actually exists. In The Silmarillion, Tolkien states that the elves and men KNEW that Iluvatar and the Ainur existed. That they had spoken with them. If it is is true that Iluvatar is a Christian God, then Tolkien's work basically tells me that I'm wrong, just like any other Christian writing. I refuse to believe that. It may be based on our world, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Iluvatar is a Christian God. And yes, I'm aware that Tolkien is Catholic and thats probably what he meant, but thats not what I interpret. And yes, I'm also aware that this is entirely made up so it doesn't really matter, but I suppose it matters to me. Tolkienism is my "unofficial religion". Something I know is not true, but would be really cool if it was.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

My thoughts on this are that since Tolkien has repeatedly stated that Middle-Earth is based on our current world (aren't we in the seventh age or something?), that Illuvater IS the christian God.

Thank you! Thank you!

However, you bring up an interesting point.

If ME is considered our world, not just a theoretical world based on Christian theology, than arguing who exactly Eru is does have some validity as Aragorn just argued.

And where exactly in Christian theology would the Ainur fit? Are they angels, or do they seem to have more power than the Christian angels?

By the way, Boppy, where does it say 7th Age? I'd like to know.

[BeardofPants]

Aragorn, if you acknowledge that ME is based upon this current world, then it follows that Illuvater, the all-father, must be the ME equivalent of God. In all honesty, you seem rather muddled in not following through this natural train of thought - "Yes ME is based on this world, but whilst Tolkien blah blahed, I don't think blah blah". It's contradictory, innit? Tolkien's world = Tolkien explicitly states that ME is based on this world = Illuvater is God. That's not hard, is it?

And by the by, I'm an atheist.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Aragorn, if you acknowledge that ME is based upon this current world, then it follows that Illuvater, the all-father, must be the ME equivalent of God. In all honesty, you seem rather muddled in not following through this natural train of thought - "Yes ME is based on this world, but whilst Tolkien blah blahed, I don't think blah blah". It's contradictory, innit? Tolkien's world = Tolkien explicitly states that ME is based on this world = Illuvater is God. That's not hard, is it?

And by the by, I'm an atheist.

"blah blahed, I don't think blah blah"

cute.



Until I seriously looked at the argument that ME is this world, I agreed with you.

However, the theology of ME is not the theology of Christianity. Unless I misread the Bible, and there's a section in there on Two Trees (highly unlikely ), they are two separate things. I know that Tolkien based ME and it's mythology on our world and Christianity, but there is a serious difference between one thing being based on another, and the two being identical.

For example, Christianity and Islam both grew out of Judaism. They have similar roots and similar ideas, but they are not the same.

The mythology of ME is also different from Christian theology. I already mentioned the Trees, but there are many more examples. Just read through the first couple of chapters of the Silmarillion (those of you who can stay awake through it, that is ). Can the Ainur be equated with angels, despite the differences in the roles that the two sometimes play? Can it be argued that they are more alike to pagan gods?



Here's where I differ from Aragorn. I do not believe that it can be argued that Iluvatar is not a godlike entity. However, I am now wondering if one can equate him with the Christian God simply because Tolkien's creation has roots in Christianity.

[inked]

Honestly, guys and gals, if you all have read ON FAIRY STORIES and/or THE LETTERS you couldn't be debating this at all. Iluvatar/Eru is God the Creator and The Flame of Anor is the Holy Spirit per Tolkein. And the whole is "Christian and Catholic" unconsciously in the writing and "consciously in the revising". NONE of which means it is a secret tract to convert the unwary - not that Tolkien would object to a few folks coming to the Faith via his influence, for he was instrumental in CS Lewis' conversion from atheism to Christianity.* But in that act of subcreation he wove all the power and splendour and joy of his ability and perception and love of God's revelations via religions prior to Christianization (primarily European)but subtly redeemed. In this matter Tolkien is overwhelmingly Catholic and Christian. And as Aragorn observes "Good has not changed" (or was that Eomer? does it matter?)

And, finally, when BoP and I agree, "DAT BE DE FINAL WORD", mainly because it is relatively rare and really 'cause otherwise she WILL steal your pantsssss!


*Tolkien's words in regard to CS Lewis were "I got him as far from atheism as the Church of England but no farther" !
CS Lewis' words were that an atheist couldn't be careful enough with his reading or his friends!



EDIT: Elemmire, You are quite correct in that there is not perfect identity. There is overwhelming applicability, to use Tolkien's preferred sense of correlation. And it is not *shudder* allegorical.

[Elemmírë]

Yes. BoP is very dangerous.

Actually, Inked, I haven't read those ones, I'll have to try to find them in one of our libraries when I go back home in a couple weeks. My knowledge is limited to the Silm, LotR, and whatever volumes of the HoME series I can get my hands on...

EDIT: Elemmire, You are quite correct in that there is not perfect identity. There is overwhelming applicability, to use Tolkien's preferred sense of correlation. And it is not *shudder* allegorical.

Did I say allegorical? I do hope not! Though Tolkien's vision of what the War of the Ring would have looked like had it been an allegory was somewhat interesting...

I know it's applicable, though. I agree with you and BoP, my only difficulty is that I'm able to understand where Aragorn is coming from as well.

Gosh... I think it's terrible that I keep on switching sides, but I can't help it. Aragorn, if you ever have time, you should read the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth in Morgoth's Ring as well. You can find many reasons to link ME to Christianity in there.

There you have it. I am not only Elemmire of the Many Names, but now also Elemmire of the Many Conflicting Opinions.

[inked]

Elemmire,

I apologize! You did not use the word or concept allegorical. I was merely trying to forestall someone/anyone else from that jump so taught in high school lit classes. Tolkien abhorred it. He sure as (insert word of choice generally noting a less than favorable eternal abode) did not write it !

[Elemmírë]

Don't worry about it, inked. I know.

[Aragorn]

Meh. I'm still not convinced, but I don't feel like replying. Mainly because 1) I'm half asleep and 2) you guys seem to have made up your minds already.

[Pytt]

please do so Aragorn. I find this thread exiting, and if you have some points that not have been spoken of, I would like to hear what you think about it

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

Meh. I'm still not convinced, but I don't feel like replying. Mainly because 1) I'm half asleep and 2) you guys seem to have made up your minds already.

*Shrugs* You have a right to your opinion, but it is totally wrong. Tolkien states explicitly in the Letters, over and over, that Iluvatar is merely the Elvish term for God the Father, and the Flame of Anor is the Holy Ghost. Christ doesn't enter into the Elvish theology because He was not yet Incarnate. The Valar, Valinor, and the Two Trees are not mentioned in the Bible because that was the Elvish paradise, as Eden was humanity's.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

Meh. I'm still not convinced, but I don't feel like replying. Mainly because 1) I'm half asleep and 2) you guys seem to have made up your minds already.

Pytt: "please do so Aragorn. I find this thread exiting, and if you have some points that not have been spoken of, I would like to hear what you think about it ".

Hey guys, it's not our job to convince you of anything! However, I do think Tolkien's take on the subject as expressly stated is AUTHORITATIVE. However, you need not think so. You can certainly subscribe to the critical theory that an author doesn't know all that he or she intends in a given work, but the rather extreme form that such an author knows NOTHING and the critic(s) know all because of (insert Freud, Jung, special relationships, psychical powers, communications from the dead, channeling, etc) is politely known as bovine feces! But flail away at reality all you want . Some people make careers of this sort of stuff!!! What are facts that they should stand in the way of anything? If the data don't fit the theory, modify the data or destroy it or ignore it BUT NEVER ABANDON A HYPOTHESIS OR THEORY BECAUSE IT IS ABSOLUTELY AND UTTERLY WRONG! That would be the mark of a weak and logical mindset. MUCH BETTER THE VALOR OF VERISIMILITUDE IMPARTED BY INVERSION OF MERE FACTUALITY..... * er, umm...is this the venting thread? *... .

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

Meh. I'm still not convinced, but I don't feel like replying. Mainly because 1) I'm half asleep and 2) you guys seem to have made up your minds already.

Hey! Hey! I've made up mind, but I'm still listening to your opinion and see the possible merit in it. *shrug* I just don't agree with it.

Originally Posted by inked

Hey guys, it's not our job to convince you of anything! However, I do think Tolkien's take on the subject as expressly stated is AUTHORITATIVE. However, you need not think so. You can certainly subscribe to the critical theory that an author doesn't know all that he or she intends in a given work, but the rather extreme form that such an author knows NOTHING and the critic(s) know all because of (insert Freud, Jung, special relationships, psychical powers, communications from the dead, channeling, etc) is politely known as bovine feces! But flail away at reality all you want . Some people make careers of this sort of stuff!!! What are facts that they should stand in the way of anything? If the data don't fit the theory, modify the data or destroy it or ignore it BUT NEVER ABANDON A HYPOTHESIS OR THEORY BECAUSE IT IS ABSOLUTELY AND UTTERLY WRONG! That would be the mark of a weak and logical mindset. MUCH BETTER THE VALOR OF VERISIMILITUDE IMPARTED BY INVERSION OF MERE FACTUALITY..... * er, umm...is this the venting thread? *... .

Down the hallway, second door to the right...

*ahem* "hey guys"??? I am on your side. At least... I think I am... Sometimes.

btw, what's wrong with Freud... (besides the whole Chauvinistic pig part...)

That sounds like a quote I've seen somewhere, Einstein I think... yep!

"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
Albert Einstein

[inked]

you know, that Einstein guy was pretty smart!

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Attalus

*Shrugs* You have a right to your opinion, but it is totally wrong. Tolkien states explicitly in the Letters, over and over, that Iluvatar is merely the Elvish term for God the Father, and the Flame of Anor is the Holy Ghost. Christ doesn't enter into the Elvish theology because He was not yet Incarnate. The Valar, Valinor, and the Two Trees are not mentioned in the Bible because that was the Elvish paradise, as Eden was humanity's.

Well, that's basically what I was stating in my earlier post. I can't remember off-hand the letter number in which Tolkien talks about this stuff, but I DO remember it. Anyone care to post it up?