Climate of Eriador

[Valandil]

IIRC, Tolkien at least mentioned, if he didn't explicitly decree, that the Shire was (could have been?) at approximately the same lattitude as Oxford. What would the weather have been like there?

At first, we might think it would be equivalent to the weather in central England. However, England is an island... and much of the weather in the rest of western Europe must be moderated by all the surrounding seas. I mean, Chicago is south of Rome... but we get WINTER here! And we aren't even mountainous...

I suspect that if the Shire was at about the position of Oxford (would that make Fornost and Annuminas about as far north as York? Or maybe just Lincoln?), and being more inland, that we should look at inland sites of about the same lattitude. A couple cities that might fit the bill could be Moscow in the Eastern Hemisphere and Edmonton, Alberta in the Western Hemisphere - being approximately in the same lattitude as Oxford, and both being hundreds of miles inland. Both have MUCH more severe winters than Oxford, is that not so?

I know there are a couple particularly bad winters reported to have hit late in the 3rd Age - the Fell Winter of 2911-12 and the Long Winter of 2758-59... but I wonder - what was the 'average' winter like in Eriador - especially at places like The Shire, Bree, Annuminas, Fornost... then east to Rivendell at the foot of the great Misty Mountains? Was it more like that of Oxford? Or more like Moscow or Edmonton?

[Attalus]

I have always assumed that Eriador had the same climate as England, but, you are right, no Gulf Stream, so it would get chilly in the Winter. Maybe that's why "rocks cracked in the frosty night."

[Haradrim]

Ive mentioned this in another thread but how do we know that The world which middle earth is on is the size of our planet that it has the same mass, also this may have been mentioned but does it have any moons. How far away from the sun is it. All of these would be important to figuring out what the weather was like.

[Valandil]

I believe Tolkien did pretty well establish that Middle-earth IS earth... I don't recall just now where it was... whether one of the primary books, or one of his letters... can anyone recall just where that is?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

can anyone recall just where that is?

"If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy." (L294)
This sounded a bit unlikely to me, and a check in an atlas quickly showed that this statement was extremely vague, to say the least: actually, the North-South distance of the latitudes of Florence and Troy is twice as large as that of Minas Tirith and Pelargir (the scale of the large LR foldout map being verified against that of TR). However, if the latitude of Hobbiton was accepted to be correct, this provoked the idea to apply a meridional grid on the Middle-Earth map, allowing to project it on a globe (which Karen Fonstad thought impossible, cf. TAMe).

I found it interesting and informative .
Unfortunately, the map is too light, but you still can make out the contours of Europe under the map of Middle-earth.
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~l...kien/Grid.html

[Elanor the Fair]

There are a lot of variables to consider - climate change, tectonic plate movement, and even the expanding earth theory!!

Whenever I consider Tolkien's references to the climate of Middle-Earth it always seemed logical to me that Tolkien's Earth was smaller than our Earth. His hot, dry, "equatorial" regions seem so much closer to his "polar" regions than is the case with our current Earth. This would indicate a smaller planet.

[Haradrim]

Same here. Our earth seems a lot larger. Also I always thought that Middle Earth was supposed to not be earth.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

There are a lot of variables to consider - climate change, tectonic plate movement, and even the expanding earth theory!!

Whenever I consider Tolkien's references to the climate of Middle-Earth it always seemed logical to me that Tolkien's Earth was smaller than our Earth. His hot, dry, "equatorial" regions seem so much closer to his "polar" regions than is the case with our current Earth. This would indicate a smaller planet.

I don't believe he ever defined where the equator was. And in some cases, hot areas can stretch further north (Sahara Desert) and cold areas can go further south (north central USA for instance... or at altitude, the Himalayas or southern China). In any case, I think his INTENT was that Middle-earth is our own Earth. He may not have been careful enough in working it out to the right scale - but it was his intent. I'm not even so sure he defines just how hot things get in particular areas... like Umbar, etc.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm not even so sure he defines just how hot things get in particular areas... like Umbar, etc.

About hot Umbar... I don't think so.
Recent radar enhanced scans, taken from the Columbia shuttle over Sudan and Egypt, showed the beds of burried rivers, some as big as the Nile, which was running south and west.So all this arid extensive desert 's area 10 000 years ago was covered with forest and grazing land.
Considering that Sahara region used to be a fertile land in the previous millenia you could say that Tolkien did not "wander off" too far.

And his intent was definately to depict the lost history of some regions of the Earth, England in particular. Othervise he would not write in his letters a clarification on what Age we are living now.
" I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as Second and Third Age. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh".

[Haradrim]

The argument abou tthe Sahara is flawed because the Sahara is the way it is because of plate tectonics. The world used to be one super continent. at that time most everything was forest because the supercontinent was in the middle. Then it broke apart. Africa is slowly moving more equatorial. That is why the Sahara is the way it is. Maybe we should start discussing where Eriador is moving according to Plate tectonics.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't believe he ever defined where the equator was. And in some cases, hot areas can stretch further north (Sahara Desert) and cold areas can go further south (north central USA for instance... or at altitude, the Himalayas or southern China). In any case, I think his INTENT was that Middle-earth is our own Earth. He may not have been careful enough in working it out to the right scale - but it was his intent. I'm not even so sure he defines just how hot things get in particular areas... like Umbar, etc.

Yes, I agree that Tolkien intended Middle-Earth to be our Earth, but what about the references to the stars being strange. Wouldn't this indicate the constellations of the southern hemisphere as opposed to the northern hemisphere??

I just wonder how much physiological change Tolkien speculated for Middle-Earth compared to current Earth.

[Haradrim]

I think the planet is supposed to be ours but with different stars, different land formations and such. Unless he does specify where some o fthe stars are, and that he was thinking that maybe this whole thing occured before pangea. There were supposed to be 8 supercontinents before pangea so mayb ethis whole thing did happen million sof years ago when the world looked differently and the stars were closer together. Or maybe there were other stars back then because stars do die it just takes a long time for us to tell. Hope that wasnt a little too scientific?

[Valandil]

Well - the stars part could only refer to Harad, since Rhun is at approximately the same lattitude (at least generally) as Rivendell and the Shire. Aragorn says that he has been 'to Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange' (you made me look it up! ). So that part about the stars should only refer to Harad, as anything in the same lattitude would see the same stars.

'Harad' actually means 'South' IIRC (Elvish experts, please advise) - so Aragorn could have been talking about the far south in general, as opposed to a specific land. Also - you'll note on the maps that it is 'Near Harad' for which the location is more 'pinned down' - and that 'Far Harad' is a bit off the maps originally published and drawn by Christopher Tolkien. The indication could be that it's sort of 'far away south' - and not just one spot.

Besides all that, I'm not a great traveler myself, but wouldn't the stars be somewhat different even with ANY significant change to the north or south? In other words, if you go 1000 or 2000 miles south, but still have not crossed the equator, you're still seeing stars you would not see further north... although you wouldn't see them all until after (or almost) crossing the equator. So... I still contend that Aragorn could have traveled significantly further south to where the stars were different at night (which he would be very aware of - using them as his guides, rather than maps or GPS) - and that it could still be visualized as our same earth and the same stars.

And Haradrim... I don't believe the tectonic plates have anything to do with the Sahara desert being what it is. Other than that its location on the African plate puts it where it stays hot and dry, due to other surrounding conditions.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Besides all that, I'm not a great traveler myself, but wouldn't the stars be somewhat different even with ANY significant change to the north or south? In other words, if you go 1000 or 2000 miles south, but still have not crossed the equator, you're still seeing stars you would not see further north... although you wouldn't see them all until after (or almost) crossing the equator. So... I still contend that Aragorn could have traveled significantly further south to where the stars were different at night (which he would be very aware of - using them as his guides, rather than maps or GPS) - and that it could still be visualized as our same earth and the same stars.

.

This is quite true. The night sky at the North Pole is quite different from that at the Equator. Don't forget, the Hobbits saw the Great Bear (=Big Dipper) in the sky.

[Haradrim]

oooh well that pretty much signifies that it is our stars and our planet. The mentioning of a constellation hope top both worlds is proof because the lilkelihood of it being in the sameformation to another planet is highly unlikely.

[umbardacil]

i always thought hobbiton was about the same latitude as moscow. On our modern world the climate is mostly controlled by huge belts of air around certain latitudes. Around the equator there is a hot moist belt that causes the rainforests(amazon, central africa, indonesia). there is a warm dry belt above the 30 degree latitude that causes the deserts(sahara, mohave, north india). and there is a belt of temperate cool air at 45 degrees(northern US, Europe) and cold dry polar belts. I pictured hobbiton at about 50 degrees latitude and harad at 30 creating its desert climate, with far harad at the equator with its jungles. I heard also that africa was once all jungle, and the uplift of the himalayas creating the sahara, but im not sure how that would happen.

[Haradrim]

I dont know if the Hymalayas caused the Sahara but if they did they would have stopped the rain clouds form getting to the Sahara because they were so tall and then it woould have ebcome a desert but there are so many other places it could get rain from

[umbardacil]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

I dont know if the Hymalayas caused the Sahara but if they did they would have stopped the rain clouds form getting to the Sahara because they were so tall and then it woould have ebcome a desert but there are so many other places it could get rain from

its probably something like that. i saw it on a show on the discovery channel about the early humans.

[Haradrim]

btw welcome to the moot. Might want to introduce yourself in the General Messages section in a thread called newbie welcoming or something like that.
Have Fun!