WHAT really Gandalf said to Balrog?

[Olmer]

"You can not pass.
I am a Servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass.
The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun.
Go back to the Shadow!
You cannot pass"
I can't help not to notice the comment on Gandalf's encounter with Balrog.

Bombadillo This paragraph defines the story! It shows how desperate the Felowship's adventure was (notice how Gandalf "said" to the Balrog... He was Weary and didn't want to lift his staff.)...

I put my ideas in a little essay on this subject, where I don't think that Gandalf was weary and didn't want to lift his staff.
But then why he was making some kind of chanting, TALKING to Balrog in the first place instead of doing something?
What was really going on on the bridge?
What the meaning of Gandalf's words?

[Erkenbrand Of Rohan]

As for the meaning of his words, the line, "weilder of the flame of Anor" can be translated as the weilder of the flame of the Sun. Gandalf's magic always were with fire, so this line perhaps emphasises his power.

The Balrog, being the "flame of Udun" is used because the Balrogs were the most terrible and greatest of Melkor's servants, and this Balrog can be presumed as being the last remnant of Melkor's realm, and his cheif ancient fortress, Utumno or Udun.

Unfortunately, my understanding doesn't go deeper than that, so I doubt I will be of much help to you.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
[B]...What was really going on on the bridge?
What the meaning of Gandalf's words?

Well... I'm sure you're going to tell us, Olmer. Don't keep us in suspense!

Wird es mehr unglaublich als der Letste sein?

[azalea]

Because there is power in words.

[Beren3000]

Udun is not Utumno, Erkenbrand. Udun is that valley behind the Black Gate of Mordor; it is connected to the rest of Mordor through the Isenmouthe (check your map).

As to "servant of the secret fire" and "wielder of the flame of Anor"; I think Gandalf is referring to his wielding of the ring of fire Narya. I think that Tolkien has written something to that extent in "Of the rings of power and the Third age" in the Sil. but I can't remember it offhand.

And I think that he used words before fighting the Balrog (for fight him he did) only to demonstrate his authority and power as an emissary of the Valar themselves.

[Erkenbrand Of Rohan]

Oh, er .. I was always under then impression that Udun was a different name for Utumno, a less common name of Utumno that Sauron used to name that valley in Mordor. I thought it was elvish for Utumno are something.

I'm really not sure now.

I think you are right about Narya though. It was another way that he harnessed his power through fire, and the fact that it was secretly given to him, hence "servant of the secret fire", a reference to Narya, "and wielder of the flame of Anor" could also refer to Narya but also to his power and magic in the use of fire.

[Beor]

No. No. All wrong, wrong wrong wrong. The balrog, in his primitive tounge, said, whats up, Gandalf, wanna run for a beer?
Gandalf, who knew the Balrog before he (the balrog) fell into league with Morgoth, didnt want to look like he was abandoning the Fellowship, but he really needed a beer, plus, it would be nice to hang out with ol' Ted (the balrog's name when he was still counted among the Maiar) for a while. So he motioned to the Balrog that he had to go, and Ted suggested that he (Gandalf) make up some crap about Udun and Anor, and be all dramatic, then they would break the bridge and fall down, down to darkness, where Amos (a Maiar bartender) kept his bar, called "The Dark Pit". So they chilled for a while, shot the ****, caught up on old times, and finally, Gandalf decided to leave. Just as he left, a glacier migrated into Amos' bar, destroying the balrog and freezing all the beer. And that's the rest of the story.

[The Gaffer]

So that's why he said he wandered paths he could not tell, forgot much that he knew, and remembered much that he had forgotten. I've had a few nights like that myself.

IIRC, Udun is BOTH a bit of the map of Mordor and a First Age word for Angband or Utumno or some such balrog-infested pit.

EDIT: looked it up on Encyclopedia of Arda: it says Udun is a Sindarin word for Utumno as well as being that bit at the north-west of Morder.

[Valandil]

Beor... Gaffer... art thou too among the conspriracy theorists?

[The Gaffer]

Mate, I don't think I have ever been able to work out a single one of Olmer's posts (no offence), so YEAH count me in! Alien elves based in the underground ruins of Atlantis were manipulating hobbits through the medium of Gandalf to prepare the way for the One True King (Elvis) to take the throne.

Unfortunately it all went horribly wrong when hobbits invented the hamburger enema and the auld fella disappeared up his own arse.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by The Gaffer

EDIT: looked it up on Encyclopedia of Arda: it says Udun is a Sindarin word for Utumno as well as being that bit at the north-west of Morder.

Then I guess both of us were right, Erkenbrand

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Beor
No. No. All wrong, wrong wrong wrong. The balrog, in his primitive tounge, said, whats up, Gandalf, wanna run for a beer?
Gandalf, who knew the Balrog before he (the balrog) fell into league with Morgoth, didnt want to look like he was abandoning the Fellowship, but he really needed a beer, plus, it would be nice to hang out with ol' Ted (the balrog's name when he was still counted among the Maiar) for a while. So he motioned to the Balrog that he had to go, and Ted suggested that he (Gandalf) make up some crap about Udun and Anor, and be all dramatic, then they would break the bridge and fall down, down to darkness, where Amos (a Maiar bartender) kept his bar, called "The Dark Pit". So they chilled for a while, shot the ****, caught up on old times, and finally, Gandalf decided to leave. Just as he left, a glacier migrated into Amos' bar, destroying the balrog and freezing all the beer. And that's the rest of the story.

I wonder what's on your mind Beor.. Has Val told you to go North more often, or do you just want a beer?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have always suspected that "flame of Anor" had something to do with Narya, the ring of fire, which Mithrandar bore. I suspect that "the secret fire' rerers to the "the flame imperishable', a sort of a holy spirit/creative force part of Illuvatar.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
I suspect that "the secret fire' rerers to the "the flame imperishable', a sort of a holy spirit/creative force part of Illuvatar.

Good point! I've never thought of it that way; but now that you mention it, I think it sounds highly possible.

[Rosie Gamgee]

This is an interesting discussion!
About Gandalf stopping and saying words. I think that something to note in all of this is that the conventional idea of what balrogs look like might be fallacious. I mean, look at Tolkien's description.

... it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, but greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

I really don't think that this creature was a monster. I mean, if it was, Boromir and Aragorn would have been on that bridge fighting it long before it was apparent that Gandalf could not stand alone.
This guy seems more to be perhaps a giant (certainly not bigger than a troll), and surrounded by darkness, shadow. And fear. I think that the Fellowship assumed that Gandalf could handle the Balrog, at first, because his nature was more of something otherwordly and evil- not just some big monster.
When the Fellowship were running for the Bridge, Gandalf and the Balrog had a bit of a 'wizard's battle' before, over that door that Gandalf shut against it. It was a battle of their.... magical powers (forgive the term). So when the Balrog came to the bridge, I think it was not Gandalf shouting a challenge to the Balrog when he spoke, but another battle of 'spells'. Notice how he keeps using the phrase "You cannot pass", almost like a chant or something. I think he was weary from trying keep the door shut behind them that he couldn't come up with any elvish spells, and subsided into a kind of mantra-chant.
The Balrog, however, does not reply, and perhaps he decides not to go head to head with Gandalf on a 'magical' level, but instead decides to just crush his frail old body instead.

Of course, the theory about the drink of beer sounds pretty good, too.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Rosie Gamgee
.
I really don't think that this creature was a monster. ...This guy seems more to be perhaps a giant (certainly not bigger than a troll), and surrounded by darkness, shadow. And fear. ...
So when the Balrog came to the bridge, I think it was not Gandalf shouting a challenge to the Balrog when he spoke, but another battle of 'spells'.

Very interesting observation! I've never thought about Balrog in the term of man-size monster, not huge, but with immense power. In this case it explains why it had been possible for an elf ,such as Ecthelion, to slay Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, using non-magic power.

Your note about the Balrog going in verbal battle, "shouting a challenge" first , made me to revise my theory.

See if you can add something else.

"You cannot pass.
I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor.
You cannot pass.
The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun.
Go back to the Shadow!
You cannot pass."

What has happened on the bridge of Khazad-Dum? Why Gandalf had to talk to Balrog instead of taking some fast actions? As we know he is not just a plain old man and he had the far greater inner power to stand up to a mighty enemies.
The answer is that he can’t reveal himself because he was binded by the rules : " their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes of weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Elves and Men to good"… (“Unfinished tales”)
So he had a dilemma: to show his power without breaking the Rules.

This is how I see the situation.
Say, you met someone who threatens you. He doesn't know you, but you know, that he is working in the same company. To buff him off you have to say some names from the top management which is familiar to both of you.
In Gandalf's case he had to translate a message to Balrog that affirm his authority and power, for an authority can be a great weapon to wield and give commands based on it.
"...I am a servant of the Secret Fire"… - Istari formally swore to serve the greatest power of Creator, in other words -" ... I am Maia, no less powerful than you are".
"... Wielder the Flame of Anor..." - conveys as -"... and also own the devise containing the Flame of Anor( ring Narya)..."
"...The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun..." - which means - ..."the dark energy of your creation will not help you".. It's believed that balrogs had been created in the dark flame of hell – Udun.

What is The Secret Fire? According to quotes from “The Sillmarills” the Secret Fire is the Imperishable Flame .
"One thing only have I (Iluvatar) added, the fire that giveth Life and Reality" - and behold, the Secret Fire burnt at the heart of the world." ("The Book of Lost Tales; Part One")
and then another: "He (Melcor) had done often alone in the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seems to him that Illuvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar." The Silmarillion
I'm leaning more to an affiliation of Gandalf's quest with direct Eru intentions and therefore giving him, as his emissary, an ability to use the 'words of command" to aid in his tasks, to do some magic, like lighting up the fire in the snow, for example.
"... and then with word of command, NAUR AN EDRAITH AMMEN! , he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it..." FOTR
As it can be seen on this case his staff itself can transmit a power of Imperishable Flame.
When Gandalf was talking about being a servant of the Secret Fire he was talking about being a servant of Iluvatar, whose name could stop on the track even more powerful challenger.

The Flame of Anor - the substance of the Sun, which wrought in the ring by Elves just in the same secret craft as it had been done with capturing the ancient light of Valinor's Trees in the Silmarills.
The ring Narya made not as a weapon against enemies, but as a tool of an indirect assistance to the owner in making his task more successful .
Of course, Balrog wouldn't recognize "the wielder of the ring Narya", but an ownership of the object which contains the Flame of Anor definitely will ring the bell for him.

Flame of Udun ... as I mentioned above, Udun ("the Hell" in Sindarin) was Morgoth's stronghold where his forces has been gathered.
Also, according to the Bible, this is an eternal fire for the damned, the Shadow of eternal death, the dark fire.. So, in no nonsense words Gandalf was telling Balrog that he is very much familiar with his background.

It’s very unfortunate that our sharp-witted Gandalf (by the way, it was him, who INSISTED on going through Moria!) couldn't foresee the such sorrowful outcome. Probably, he thought that the new master of Moria, who wouldn't give a damn about orcs and Sauron, won’t bother with few more wanderers in the endless Moria's halls.
But he was mistaken by forgetting that they have The One Ring in possession - the magic seeker of a Powerful Keeper.
To hook on a such "good catch" as Balrog - what can be better!
Balrog felt "the pull" of the ring and came out for it, to his surprise his way was barred not by dwarves, but by an adversary with no less power and authority, who friendly advised him "to get lost". Balrog didn't listen, Gandalf had nothing else to do, but to go on open confrontation, mobilizing all the might which had been allowed him to use.
Alas! Balrog was his true destined match.
At the end: Moria - without Balrog, the Fellowship - without Gandalf.

By the way Valandil why do you think that your conspiracy theory ( Gandalf and Elves are trying to usurp the throne of Gondor for " a candidate from their own party" doing it in purely altruistic notions) has more legitimacy than mine (Gandalf and Elves are trying to usurp the throne of Gondor for " a candidate from their own party" because they have some interest in it)?
What are you trying to achieve asking people on what side they are?
I thought that we are here to discuss and to learn more about the work of the Author of the Century by sharing our thoughts , observations and little findings, no sides taken, and not to make a hostile environment for somebody who didn't think in the majority's way (how very socialistic!)

Any way, I don't want you , or anybody to keep in suspense and this theory is nicht mehr unglaublich than any others (thanks for sarcasm!), besides if it won’t be any controversial themes this forum will slowly wilt to a dull Pants Game.

People, who can’t figure out what I’m writing about, please, don’t bother straining your brains, skip all my postings, sorry for inconvenience.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
...By the way Valandil why do you think that your conspiracy theory ( Gandalf and Elves are trying to usurp the throne of Gondor for " a candidate from their own party" doing it in purely altruistic notions) has more legitimacy than mine (Gandalf and Elves are trying to usurp the throne of Gondor for " a candidate from their own party" because they have some interest in it)?
What are you trying to achieve asking people on what side they are?
I thought that we are here to discuss and to learn more about the work of the Author of the Century by sharing our thoughts , observations and little findings, no sides taken, and not to make a hostile environment for somebody who didn't think in the majority's way (how very socialistic!)

Any way, I don't want you , or anybody to keep in suspense and this theory is nicht mehr unglaublich than any others (thanks for sarcasm!), besides if it won’t be any controversial themes this forum will slowly wilt to a dull Pants Game...

Olmer,

Sorry if this bothered you. I was speaking lightly and in fun... and if you didn't like it, I won't do so again. I guess so many of your previous theories have sounded so far-fetched (to me), I've come to expect the 'off-the-wall' from you. Also - sometimes you DO joke around, so maybe I took this liberty a bit too far.

(I was afraid you were going to have Gandalf and the Balrog in league with one another! )

Anyway - I was being 'witty' rather than insightful, thoughtful or kind - and I think Beor and Gaffer kind of got in the same spirit (I suspect anyway - I'll leave it to them to clear it up if I'm wrong). I'm sorry because I know you get that a lot.

I certainly didn't mean to call people to take sides or to make the environment more hostile to you.

In some ways, I posted what I did because we had a few new members around whom I thought might be taken aback by some of your theories (and you DID get me thinking on one of them recently... I'll bump it up after I finish this post).

And yes... even if I might disagree with you forever, this is FAR better than the LOTR book forum being defined by 'The Pants Game' thread (EDIT: Now I hope THAT didn't offend anyone!)

So Olmer, I apologize. Peace?

[The Gaffer]

Yes, taken and meant in jest. Apologies if it came across otherwise. I too welcome more discussion and creative thinking in these threads.

On topic, you've raised an interesting question about Words in ME:

I'm leaning more to an affiliation of Gandalf's quest with direct Eru intentions and therefore giving him, as his emissary, an ability to use the 'words of command" to aid in his tasks, to do some magic, like lighting up the fire in the snow, for example.

IIRC, an expert using the Ring would also exercise the "power of Command".

IMO, ME represents an era where language is no mere system of representation, it is integral with the fabric of things. Consider the Oathbreakers for example, or even the rules of the riddling game, which even the wickedest creatures feared to break.

[Rían]

Yes, good point about language. Reminds me of the bit in HoME 3, The Lays of Beleriand, where Finrod and Sauron are "fighting" - it's language only!

Here it is - the first "He" refers to Thu, or Sauron, and Felagund is Finrod Felegund, the elven-king :

He chanted a song of wizardry,
of piercing, opening, of treachery,
revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then suddenly Felagund there swaying
sang in answer a song of staying,
resisting, battling against power,
of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
and trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
of changing and of shifting shape,
of snares eluded, broken traps,
the prison opening, the chain that snaps.

Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
Thu's chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
and all the magic and might he brought
of Elfinesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
singing afar in Nargothrond,
the sighing of the sea beyond,
beyond the western world, on sand,
on sand of pearls in Elvenland.

Then the gloom gathered: darkness growing
in Valinor, the red blood flowing
besides the sea, where the Gnomes slew
the Foamriders, and stealing drew
their white ships with their white sails
from lamplit havens. The wind wails.
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn,
a vast smoke gushes out, a roar -
and Felagund swoons upon the floor.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for sharing that! It reminds me also of Tom Bombadil's songs, and of course, that the world was created with Music.