Fox Hunting

[Ruinel]

This topic was started in the 'Fee Paying Schools' thread and to keep that thread on topic, I decided to open a thread for the purpose of discussing fox hunting.

You may discuss fox hunting that goes on in any country, but you should know that there are considerable differences. Therefore, please include details of what rules or laws govern that hunt.

I would also like to know where you stand on the subject.

Personally, I am against it. It falls in with the other 'Blood Sports' such as dog fighting, cock fighting and hare coursing.

The following are posts from the previous thread...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

I know this is somewhat off topic - but I'll add this in here..

By the way Radagast this may also surprise you and many people inside and outside New Jersey, but New Jersey also has a long tradition of Fox Hunting


There are several hunt clubs I believe in northern New Jersey.

Originally posted by Ruinel

GASP!!! IS THAT LEGAL!!!??? How disappointing. I thought the US was more civilized than that. I thought only England was still practicing such barbarism.

[Ruinel]

[quote]Originally posted by jerseydevil

Why is it barbarism - it's hunting. You might notice some in Texas. I know they have hunting there. And of course it's legal - otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to do it. [/b]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It's barbaric.

I think the 'good ole boy' crap here sucks. I don't approve of they type of hunting done mostly here anyway. They feed the deer all year at one location. Then hunting season comes and they sit in a blind waiting for the deer to come by and POW! What they really need to do is give them a knife and a bottle of water and have them track the animal into the wilds and see how successful they really are.

I'll have to post more later... I have to leave soon.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Ruinel

Personally, I am against it. It falls in with the other 'Blood Sports' such as dog fighting, cock fighting and hare coursing.

The following are posts from the previous thread...

I fully agree with you. It is a disgusting practice. I am not against eating animals (we are omnivores, as a friend as pointed out to me), but killiing them for the sake of our own amusement is cruel. It is natural for animals to eat other animals, but killing them for sport is murder. Sorry if I contradict myself somehow, my brain's a bit 'fried'.

[BeardofPants]

Against. I have no problem with hunting if it is for pest control, but fox hunting is completely unnecessary, and brutal.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
Oh and by the way, I don't want to seem a complete stereotype but I used to fox hunt before I went to Cambridge and, to be frank, I didn't like it much because riding a horse at that speed is intensely physical and I'm not that strong or well-built but I could certainly see how it was exhilerating and I disagree that it was barbaric.

Originally posted by Ruinel
The purpose of 'hunting' is to kill an animal. If you take the life of an animal, don't you think that it should be for a purpose? Such as to provide food. I find it barbaric to simply hunt an animal to it's death only for your own entertainment and sport.

I used to own a horse, I used to ride all the time. It has nothing to do with why I think fox hunting is barbaric.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
Think of the wonders hunting does for the rural economy, though. And if a chap owns the land he hunts on, then why should he not be allowed to hunt whatever he damn well pleases on it?

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I guess it's a matter of whether you think it's morally acceptable to kill animals for pleasure. If society as a whole has decided that it is immoral, and made it illegal, then the fact that it's your land is neither here nor there.

What gets my goat is that the kind of people who moan about us townies not understanding the ways of the country are quite happy to pocket massive handouts in the form of agricultural subsidies. In fact, so massive that they get more subsidy than the whole of the rest of (UK) industry put together.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
And why shouldn't he be allowed to soak a cat with gasoline and set it on fire, alive? I mean, after all, if it's his cat and his property, and he gets pleasure from it... why not?

I can't understand why you don't see how this is just so wrong.

Originally posted by Radagast
That's rather a narrow minded thing to say now, isn't it? Tell me, have you ever been hunting? I have. Although, as I said above, I was never great shakes at riding, there is something exhilerating about being in a pack of riders, the dogs running ahead of you, exciting cries all around and after it all a good dinner and a reception, etc. What's wrong with that? It does no real major harm- we kill a relatively small number of animals and it's very popular and enjoyable, so...

[Radagast The Brown]

I'm against it too. I'm not sure we have it here... I would need to ask my mom. (she is vegeterian btw, but she says it's because she doesn't like the taste of the meat)
It sounds barbaric to me, and unnecessary, and there are many other ways to have fun, if that's why people hunt.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I can't understand how you can use a way out there example to try to support your belief. Lighting a cat on fire is much different than fox hunting.

I have no problem with fox hunting or hunting in general - as long as the animal is not endangered.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Here we call them Blue Bloods. They're descended from the original founders of NJ, mainly the proprietors and still own a lot of NJ.

The oldest corporation in America is The West Jersey Proprietors. The General Board of Proprietors of the Eastern Division of New Jersey was dissolved in 1998. Even today, any unclaimed land has to be settled through the proprietors.

East and West Jersey Proprietors - Archives
Quaker West New Jersey: Democracy in 1677

Slightly off topic - but it demonstrates that New Jersey is still tied to it's colonial past. Quakers are still here. A meeting house in Princeton from the early 1700's is stil in use by Quakers. Fxo Hunting is still a tradition here, although it is much more limited.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
Hooray!

Originally posted by Ruinel
jeezus! Narrow minded? I think we get the picture of who's narrow minded here. Look at yourself? How narcissistic! You look at this from an egocentric point of view, only from the view of your own pleasure, with no empathy for the fox at all. You have a great time at the expense of killing some fox for the pleasure of just seeing it ripped to shreds?

Go riding with a bunch of people, go riding with the dogs... but do you have to get your jollies from something so barbaric?

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The dog doesn't kill the fox. The dogs show the hunter where the fox is and then the hunters follow it. They shoot the fox. The fox is not ripped to shreds by the dogs.

[EDIT] It seems as if the dogs do kill the fox, but they do not rip it to shreds as Ruinel suggests. The dog bites the fox on the back of the neck, where it seems to die instantly.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
The point that is trying to be made by Radagast is that the fox is owned by the hunter, the fox is being hunted on the hunter's property... and even though the fox is caught by the dogs, and the hunters watch while it is literally torn into shreds to it's gruesome death... it's ok, because the hunters get great pleasure from this act.

How is this any different than dog fighting? How is this any different than killing an animal for your own pleasure on your own land? I just don't see it.

Originally posted by Ruinel
For your viewing pleasure... a site with lovely videos of the fox hunt... make sure you view #6 and #10... they're my particular favorites.
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~icabs2/videos-f.htm

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It's from a Ban Fox Hunting site - they're going to have the worst ones possible. You can also come up with bad senarios for all hunting where the animal isn't killed cleanly.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ruinel

This is a nice clean nip on the back of the neck to instantly and humanely kill the fox.

Originally posted by Ruinel

Another quick, clean nip at the back of the neck.

[Jonathan]

I don't think pictures from a site called 'banbloodysports.com' are that reliable. If they are against fox hunting, of course they dig up and show the bloodiest pictures they can.
It would be better got get information about fox hunting from a more neutral site.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Food for thought... if only one dog gives a clean, humane bite to the back of the fox's neck to quickly and painlessly sever the spinal cord and kill it, then why aren't the rest of the dogs muzzled to prevent the excited dogs from tearing at the fox?

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I can show you a done of pics that anti-abortion people use of babies limbs sticking out of garbage cans too - is that the norm? You have no idea where those pics really came from or how normal they are to fox hunting. Shooting an animal isn't always a clean kill either.

The web site has a reason for posting those pics. They need them to support their cause. It's shock value.

Originally posted by Ruinel
You don't know either that its a clean and civilized kill. You only want to argue this point with me, regardless of what you know or don't know. You just want to be on the side that's right. But you aren't. You even admitted that you thought the fox was shot by the hunters... you didn't even know that it was the dogs that are bred, raised and trained to do just this one thing, to track down and attack this fox.

I can show you many more sites that don't have pictures on them. I showed you a site at CNN.com and the BBC, which showed both sides. You want to believe that people against fox hunting are animal rights extremists that throw paint on women's furs on Broadway, and want everyone to give up eating meat.

There's no meat to be eaten in this hunt. There's only the witnessing of the dogs killing the fox.

Of course they're going to show you those pics, so that people like you who refuse to believe that these so-called civilized people would participate in such a blood sport. But it's true, and its covered with the blanket of tradition.

They'll quickly condemn dog fighting, cock fighting, and hare coursing... but they will keep their bloody sport because they have a nice drink before, have an exhilarating ride during, and then after they've witnessed the fox's brutal death, they have a nice dinner afterwards. Therefore, it makes it most civilized and far removed from the other blood sports.

And after all, who but the gentry and nobility participate in the fox hunt? Therefore, it must be civilized. But you can't ignore the fact that it's a brutal death for this animal for the pleasure of a few sick people.

NOTE: I'm sorry if I burried your posts and replies with these. I wanted to make it easier for those interested in this discussion to see the conversation. If an admin knows how to rearrange these posts to put other's responses after mine, then go ahead and do that.

[Radagast]

One of Ruinel's comments was 'Who but the nobility and gentry would participate in such barbarism?' (or something to that effect).

While admittedly, when I went hunting, there were many there who bore old and distinguished names but there was also many who were middle-class. Lawyers, doctors- ordinary people. So I disagree it is the exclusive pursuit of the well-bred.

[Lady Ravyn]

coming form northern nj, there are quite a few hunt clubs up this way. my aunt used to belong to one, but i think they only chased the fox, and never actually killed it. fox hunting can be fun, but it can also be brutal if you don't have the dogs trained well enough- that's how incidents like in those pictures occur. that's not to say i'm for it, it's an odd and rather bloody tradition, but i can also see how it can be fun.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I don't think pictures from a site called 'banbloodysports.com' are that reliable. If they are against fox hunting, of course they dig up and show the bloodiest pictures they can.
It would be better got get information about fox hunting from a more neutral site.

Exactly. I can dig up tons of abortion pictures from anti-abortion sites that show hidious things. Baby limps chopped up and sticking out of garbage bags and so forth. But I'm pretty sure that Ruinel and BoP both support abortion.

I have no problem with fox hunting. In Normal hunting the kill is not always clean either. I can go and dig up hideous pictures of just gun hunting that didn't go as planned.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Exactly. I can dig up tons of abortion pictures from anti-abortion sites that show hidious things. Baby limps chopped up and sticking out of garbage bags and so forth. But I'm pretty sure that Ruinel and BoP both support abortion.

I have no problem with fox hunting. In Normal hunting the kill is not always clean either. I can go and dig up hideous pictures of just gun hunting that didn't go as planned.

I don't really care about the pictures. They mean nothing tome, and might be fake.

But hunting for fun is just wrong - if you hunted for food, then fine, but if you don't there's no reason to kill these animals.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Okay folks, let's not get too graphic.