The Great Globin: A Maiar?

[Tinman]

According to Wiki: In letters written later in his life Tolkien suggested that the Great Goblin and other highly influential leaders among the orcs may not have been mortal orcs, but lesser Maiar who had taken orkish form, or "hröa".

I can't seem to find the particular letter referencing this, or any other detail hinting the origin of any goblins being a source other than the normal debated theories. Can anyone share any further details?

[Lefty Scaevola]

That was likely part of his experimental thought, never finished, about rewriting Orcs to have been developed from (immortal) elf stock into to being developed from human or even animal stock. He would then have to explain how some of the Orc leaders had lifespan rather much longer than humans.

[Galin]

Hello Tinman

There's no letter that I'm aware of [at least in the book collecting some of Tolkien's letters]...

... but in Morgoth's Ring, section Myths Transformed, there are a number of essays where Tolkien considers various origins of orcs, and in these we find references to some Orc-formed Maiar. I'm pretty sure Maiar-orcs figure in the 'orcs are beasts' text, the orcs have a 'mixed origin' text [Elves and Men], and the most finished text, 'Orcs are Men' in origin [the chronology of Men's awakening is also tinkered with by Tolkien himself].

In other words, in all these texts the 'regular' orcs hail from different things, but the notion of Maiar-orcs -- as some formidable and long-lived Orcs among them -- seems to be relatively more constant.

If I recall correctly, however, there is no reference to the Great Goblin necessarily being a Maiar-orc, so this may be someone's opinion about a specific orc, mixing in with the information from these texts.


At least at the time Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the idea in the 1930 'Silmarillion' [or called Qenta Noldorinwa at this time] appears to be that Melkor created orcs and did not need to pervert other living creatures into orcs -- although this notion would certainly change later in any case.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hello Tinman

There's no letter that I'm aware of [at least in the book collecting some of Tolkien's letters]...

... but in Morgoth's Ring, section Myths Transformed, there are a number of essays where Tolkien considers various origins of orcs, and in these we find references to some Orc-formed Maiar. I'm pretty sure Maiar-orcs figure in the 'orcs are beasts' text, the orcs have a 'mixed origin' text [Elves and Men], and the most finished text, 'Orcs are Men' in origin [the chronology of Men's awakening is also tinkered with by Tolkien himself].

In other words, in all these texts the 'regular' orcs hail from different things, but the notion of Maiar-orcs -- as some formidable and long-lived Orcs among them -- seems to be relatively more constant.

If I recall correctly, however, there is no reference to the Great Goblin necessarily being a Maiar-orc, so this may be someone's opinion about a specific orc, mixing in with the information from these texts.


At least at the time Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the idea in the 1930 'Silmarillion' [or called Qenta Noldorinwa at this time] appears to be that Melkor created orcs and did not need to pervert other living creatures into orcs -- although this notion would certainly change later in any case.

Great explanations. Thank you.