Gollum and Sauron

[Gordis]

Let's have some talk about Gollum and his relationship with Sauron. Gollum's story after he lost his ring and before his appearance in Moria is not too well known. How was he able to follow hobbits to Esgaroth? Why did he go to Mordor? Has he become Shelob's friend before or after his capture? How was he captured? Has he been to Barad Dur? What did he really told Sauron under torture and how much he concealed? Has he escaped or was he released and, if so, what for? Why wasn't he followed? Or was he? Why did Sauron want him again after his talk with Gandalf?
Any ideas?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i think sauron wanted to recapture gollum to interrogate him to see if he had told gandalf anything of vital import

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

As I've said before I believe Gollum was captured in Mirkwood by the servants of Khamûl, and taken to Barad-Dûr from there. I think he told Sauron all the useful info he really knew about Bilbo, Shire and Baggins. I don't think telling him Bilbo was good at riddles would have been much help.

[Butterbeer]

from memory gandalf intimates Gollum was drawn To Mordor presumably by sauron ( he kind of felt the call etc)

my (initial) ideas (from top of my head):

he sneaked around for a while, thus got to know of (not know as such?) Shelob but was then captured and tortured, presumably in barad dur where no doubt he told ALL he knew

eventually i guess sauron released him as a seeker, and informant who feels the lure and call of the ring and is driven to find it: presumably to be followed or kept tabs on but he slinked away and threw off the watchers easily in the wild.

I do not think he would have escaped!


How the hell did he get into Moria though: and what did he live on? I don't think he could have sneaked in the Eastern entrance and navigated and not got lost pretty much all the way through to the western gate, nor stood there the other side of the misty mountains at the western entrance and said "mellon!" etc?

it makes you think if frodo was pre-ordained for this task then so was Gollum by the same token?

[Gordis]

Being drawn to Mordor by Sau's call is more or less what Gandalf thought, but that seems very strange to me somehow.
He got to know Shelob personally, not of her.
In UT it is written that Gollum did not say all he knew, "what he knew he falsified". "Utterly indomitable he was, except by death"
Sau reliesed him to seek the Ring yes, but didn't he understand the danger in the case if Gollum will be questioned by the Wize?
In UT it is written that Gollum has hidden in Moria from the nazgul who were making their pleasure trip along the Vales of Anduin in the summer of 3018.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Being drawn to Mordor by Sau's call is more or less what Gandalf thought, but that seems very strange to me somehow.
He got to know Shelob personally, not of her.
In UT it is written that Gollum did not say all he knew, "what he knew he falsified". "Utterly indomitable he was, except by death"
Sau reliesed him to seek the Ring yes, but didn't he understand the danger in the case if Gollum will be questioned by the Wize?
In UT it is written that Gollum has hidden in Moria from the nazgul who were making their pleasure trip along the Vales of Anduin in the summer of 3018.

forgive me for being dense here but what could gollum have told the wise other than he'd had a friendly fire-side chat with Sauron and that the Nine were punting up and down the anduin in staw hats, cream blazers accompanied by chilled champagne and strawberries (with cream)?

just while sauron went to the Optician of course!


by this time they (the wise) knew it was Sauron?
I'd need to look at the timescale: how quickly did the Riders since gollum's capture seek out the Shire? from memory it seems an absurdly long time (basing this very roughly from memory on time Gandalf and Aragorn had between finding gollum and the flight to the fords etc?)

did you post elswhere that the Wk would have known where the Shire was from Angmar (or his Northern Horticultual period)?

If so: seems conclusive WK is not quite the 100% Team-Sauron player is he?

How long would it have taken Sauron to find the Shire anyway: he must have been able to make a good guess? I.e North west?? or west of the mountains at least?


I still think he may have been tempted (THE WK) to master the One if he had got it in the North: if he mastered the One: what worry the Nine? Or anyone wearing the nine? (but thats another thread)

[Gordis]

Oh, Butterbeer, so many questions! I have no time now, sorry, I shall have to look at the sources again. The last question I replied to in the Eye thread.

But please have a look on Olmer's thread "in defence of the Ringwraiths or where is the beef?" - it is about the hunt for the Ring. Perhaps we should continue it?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

How the hell did he get into Moria though: and what did he live on?

Moria had many gates. According to Gandalf, there was two gates on the western side of the mountains: dwarve’s gates and elve’s gate, and one on the eastern side, and, also, as far as he knew (from "The Hobbit"), two orc-goblin’s entrances into the depth of mountains near the High Pass and one backdoor, or “Lower gate” on the western mountain’s slopes.
As what he lived on... probably on meat jerky of orc's.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well in the Hobbit I think it said that when he could catch fish he ate Orcs, so maybe he did the same thing in Moria.

[The Wizard from Milan]

In UT we read that Gollum entered Moria from the eastern side and that he could not leave from the western side because he did not know there was an exit that way although he was hidden close to it when the company of the nine entered.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

it makes you think if frodo was pre-ordained for this task then so was Gollum by the same token?

Wouldn't that be " . . . by the same tolkien?

Originally Posted by gordis

How was he able to follow hobbits to Esgaroth?

Gollum proved to be a good tracker. At least I gather that from different passages in the LOTR. Aragorn's comments on the Andiun. The Elves comments in Lothlorien. and a few others that I can not think of at the moment.

Originally Posted by gordis

Why did he go to Mordor?

IIRC, in the council of Elrond, it was stated that all evil creatures were drawn to Mordor. Gollum's association to the ring made him open to Sauron's summons.

Originally Posted by gordis

Has he become Shelob's friend before or after his capture?

I do not know. Friend may be a strong term. I think gollum proved himself useful (maybe lure extra victims to her?) to Shelob, so she let him be for the time being.

Originally Posted by gordis

How was he captured?

I would guess that a nazgul had a hand in it. Or that Gollum went someplace that he was not aware of the appropriate danger to himself. (Similar to the secret falls that Faramir's party guarded)

Originally Posted by gordis

Has he been to Barad Dur?

I am guessing yes, but I am not certain.

Originally Posted by gordis

Has he escaped or was he released and, if so, what for?

I think that he was released, but I am not sure for what purpose. I think the purpose was to find the ring and act as a homing pigeon for Sauron.

Originally Posted by gordis

Why wasn't he followed? Or was he?

Maybe Sauron did not think it necessary. He may have considered gollum unable to effectively use the ring against him.

Originally Posted by gordis

Why did Sauron want him again after his talk with Gandalf?

More information gathering?

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=mithrand1r]Wouldn't that be " . . . by the same tolkien?

Few indeed Mithrandir are the times i do not use "..."

[Gordis]

I decided to post here some quotes from the Tale of Years, the main text of LOTR and The Hunt for the Ring in UT concerning Gollum. I hope later it will help to discuss specific questions. I guess I should have done this from the start!
Tale of Years:
2941 Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring
2944 Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief' of the Ring.
[LOTR: "He found his way into Mirkwood;… his padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth, and even to the streets of Dale, listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and wide in Wilderland, and many had heard Bilbo’s name and knew where he came from. We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum’s sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted.’
‘Then why didn’t he track Bilbo further?’ asked Frodo. ‘Why didn’t he come to the Shire?’
‘Ah,’ said Gandalf, ‘now we come to it. I think Gollum tried to. He set out and came back westward, as far as the Great River. But then he turned aside. He was not daunted by the distance, I am sure. No, something else drew him away. So my friends think, those that hunted him for me.
‘The Wood-elves tracked him first, an easy task for them, for his trail was still fresh then. Through Mirkwood and back again it led them, though they never caught him. …But at the western edge of Mirkwood the trail turned away. It wandered off southwards and passed out of the Wood-elves’ ken, and was lost. … But I am afraid there is no possible doubt: he had made his slow, sneaking way, step by step, mile by mile, south, down at last to the Land of Mordor…. Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons. And all folk were whispering then of the new Shadow in the South, and its hatred of the West. There were his fine new friends, who would help him in his revenge!]
2951 Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dûr and sends three of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur. Gollum turns towards Mordor.
2980 About this time Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob.
[LOTR: Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret. And he had promised to bring her food.] .
[(LOTR: Orc talk)..But Shelob was on the go. My lads saw her and her Sneak.'
`Her Sneak? What's that? '
`You must have seen him: little thin black fellow; like a spider himself, or perhaps more like a starved frog. He's been here before. Came out of Lugbúrz the first time, years ago, and we had word from High Up to let him pass. He's been up the Stairs once or twice since then, but we've left him alone: seems to have some understanding with Her Ladyship. I suppose he's no good to eat: she wouldn't worry about words from High Up.]
3001 Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.
3009 Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron.
[UT: Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken to Barad-dûr, and there questioned and tormented. When he had learned what he could from him, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. He did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him, which could not be overcome, even by the Shadow of Fear, except by destroying him. But Sauron perceived the depth of Gollum's malice towards those that had "robbed" him, and guessing that he would go in search of them to avenge himself, Sauron hoped that his spies would thus be led to the Ring.]
3017 Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood. (Gandalf questions him there). Gandalf visits Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildur.
UT: [After his release from Mordor] Gollum soon disappeared into the Dead Marshes, where Sauron's emissaries could not or would not follow him.
[(LOTR: Gollum) 'A little path leading up into the mountains: and then a stair, a narrow stair, O yes, very long and narrow. And then more stairs. And then' – his voice sank even lower – `a tunnel, a dark tunnel; and at last a little cleft, and a path high above the main pass. It was that way that Sméagol got out of the darkness]
20.06.3018 Sauron attacks Osgiliath (And the nazgul set out for the hunt for the Ring-UT). About the same time Thranduil is attacked, and Gollum escapes.
August 3018 All trace of Gollum is lost. It is thought that at about this time, being hunted both by the Elves and Sauron's servants, he took refuge in Moria; but when he had at last discovered the way to the West-gate he could not get out.

[Butterbeer]

Many thanks indeed for that Gordis: my initial thoughts (post number 4) from memory seem pretty close barring not recollecting the gollum -shellob relationship.

3017 Smeagol captured tortured tells all pertinent info but has a (IMHO - pre-destined inner inpenetrable 'core' given by the same powers who have chosen Frodo) that sauron cannot break: given this amazing inner protection is it not therefore - to agree with you : EVEN MORE STUPID TO RELEASE HIM??? maybe Sau is a niave wet behind the ears completely un-paranoid kind of Evil Lord? I do seriouslt Doubt it! but your right it does make you wonder! Still you can see the logic in using him esp as he (gollum) desires nothing more ultimately than to avenge himself.

June 3018 the Nazgul set off on holiday with bucket and spades strawberry and cream etc "wondering where on earth the Shire might be" when sauron gets back with a 2 for one bi-focal option and they suddenly have to get serious and leg it North: arriving in the shire bag end Sept. 23, 3018


(useful source:
http://fin.go.wifl.at.org/tables/html/calendar.htm)

ASIDE: were the fell beasts on strike? Or held in reserve? or he still wanted the Nine to be as inconspicous as possible?


so in conclusion it all does happen pretty quickly and the Nine and Sauron seem to have acted pretty speedily.

Still, what are the chances (from Sauron's view with reference to decision to release Gollum) that at this exact time that gandalf et al would be actively and single-mindedly seeking for Gollum and would find him to learn he has heard of "baggins" and "shire" etc? You couldn't really bank on that one : so maybe it wasn't that stupid? hardly prudent though.


PS
those elves guarding Gollum in Mirkwood were obviously trained at the Pinewood studios COLDITZ 'German Prison guard Academy' if they couldn't notice Gollum somehow communicating with the servants of the Enemy to help him escape!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

As I've said before I believe Gollum was captured in Mirkwood by the servants of Khamûl, and taken to Barad-Dûr from there.

Well, Khamul hardly had a hand in capturing Gollum, because 30 years had passed between when Gollum turned East in Mirkwood and when he reached Mordor and 37 more before he was questioned by Sauron. Khamul surely could have made a more speedy delivery
It looks like Gollum came all by himseld slowly and not very conciously.

Gollum must have been all around the confines of Mordor, for 37 years, first close to Cirith Ungol worshipping Shelob, then he seems to wander to Morannon (Why and what for?). It looks like Gollum was captured on the road east of Morannon "Back a little, and round a little' – his skinny arm waved north and east – `and you can come on hard cold roads to the very gates of His country... His Eye watches that way all the time. It caught Sméagol there, long ago."
As for Gollum's exit it was by Cirith Ungol and Sauron ordered to let him go.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

but what could gollum have told the wise other than he'd had a friendly fire-side chat with Sauron and that the Nine were punting up and down the anduin in staw hats, cream blazers accompanied by chilled champagne and strawberries (with cream)?

No, not about the nazgul as Gandalf questioned Gollum before they set out. Just he warned Gandalf that Sauron learned about the Ring being kept by Baggins in the Shire. And that was bad for Sau, because he wanted to get the ring swiftly and secretly, before the Wise were alerted and moved the Ring to another place.


Now the question: What did Gollum really tell Sauron?
It must have been not only "Baggins" and "Shire" but also "Esgaroth". Otherwise why would Sauron send a nazgul-messenger to Dain asking for the Ring or news of Baggins?

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

How long would it have taken Sauron to find the Shire anyway: he must have been able to make a good guess? I.e North west?? or west of the mountains at least?

Exactly!
Sauron learned that Baggins from the Shire stole the Ring from Gollum in the Misty Mountains and that Baggins and a company of dwarves travelled to Esgaroth to get Smaug's treasure. So how knowing this could Sauron think that the Shire was in the Vales of Anduin? If a company travelling from the Shire to Esgaroth passes over (or under) the Misty Mountains then the Shire must be on the West side of the Mountains, not in the Vales! Was Sauron really so dumb? Had he no map?

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I'd need to look at the timescale: how quickly did the Riders since gollum's capture seek out the Shire? from memory it seems an absurdly long time (basing this very roughly from memory on time Gandalf and Aragorn had between finding gollum and the flight to the fords etc?)

About a year has passed after Sauron has questioned Gollum and before he sent the Nazgul to find the Shire IN THE VALES OF ANDUIN. It was exactly where they looked for 2,5 months (pleasure trip) After that Sauron got mad , treatened them with I can't even guess what and sent them to Saruman who (himself or Grima) sent them North-West.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

did you post elswhere that the Wk would have known where the Shire was from Angmar (or his Northern Horticultual period)?
If so: seems conclusive WK is not quite the 100% Team-Sauron player is he?

Yes I did. There were hobbits in Rhudaur and in Bree. The Witch-King had conquered both. He may not be much interested in hobbits, but he must have seen them! The Shire was founded in 1600 and overrun by Angmar in 1974. He must have known where the land of the halflings was. Also there were hobbit archers at the battle of Fornost. Actually I am not alone to think this, Christofer Tolkien made a note in UT:

(The Witch-King) had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. 20
Note 20 Since the Black Captain knew so much, it is perhaps strange that he had had so little idea of where the Shire, the land of the Halflings, lay; according to the Tale of Years there were already Hobbits settled in Bree at the beginning of the fourteenth century of the Third Age, when the Witch-king came north to Angmar."

But the WK did not tell Sauron any of this because Sauron didn't ask him directly. Instead he searched for the Shire in the Vales of Anduin for 2,5 months, though Khamul told him outright that there were no hibbits in the Vales (UT). But this search alerted Rhadagast, Saruman, Galadriel and finally Gandalf. Yes, the WK is not the 100% Team-Sauron player!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by gordis

It must have been not only "Baggins" and "Shire" but also "Esgaroth". Otherwise why would Sauron send a nazgul-messenger to Dain asking for the Ring or news of Baggins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer
How long would it have taken Sauron to find the Shire anyway: he must have been able to make a good guess? I.e North west?? or west of the mountains at least?
...
Sauron learned that Baggins from the Shire stole the Ring from Gollum in the Misty Mountains and that Baggins and a company of dwarves travelled to Esgaroth to get Smaug's treasure

we never are told what exactly happened to the master of esgaroth...maybe he was caught by sauron, and told all he knew of the hobbit and dwarves??

[Butterbeer]

you seem to be one post behind there Gordis!

C'MON KEEP UP!

i'll not bang anymore questions off since you put so much hard work into answering them!

did you find the link useful: there's all sorts of calenders and what not on there : was the first link on my search too!

well i agree with alot of it: just not on the hypothetical Flower Boy V Bath Boy contest.

Best
BB

PS LCOU: good point the Master of E if caught would have known more: if it were me i'd a sent the Nazgul to Esgaroth straight away after Gollum shrieked "Shire" "Baggins" "Esgaroth" etc on winged messengars and interogated some folk up there to find out accurately where the Shire was.


Hey hindsights great eh?

We all forget how confident Sauron was and how hopeless it looked to everyone else barring using the ring (sauron's main fear and indeed expectation)

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by gordis

... There were hobbits in Rhudaur and in Bree. The Witch-King had conquered both. He may not be much interested in hobbits, but he must have seen them! The Shire was founded in 1600 and overrun by Angmar in 1974. He must have known where the land of the halflings was. Also there were hobbit archers at the battle of Fornost. Actually I am not alone to think this, Christofer Tolkien made a note in UT:

But the WK did not tell Sauron any of this because Sauron didn't ask him directly. Instead he searched for the Shire in the Vales of Anduin for 2,5 months, though Khamul told him outright that there were no hibbits in the Vales (UT)...

Remember that the Nazgul had poor eyesight. After sacking Fornost in 1974, if his armies didn't stop there but continued on to ravage the Shire, the Witch-King may not have known that the people there were all little ("What... is this where they sent all their children? Whatever...") He may not have connected that with the knowledge later gained from Gollum.

Hmmm... did Sauron, W-K, et al, have any reason to think that Hobbits even WERE small people? I forget now...

[Gordis]

Ohh, yesterday's posting frenzy! No I can't keep up, Butterbeer, not at this rate! Thank you for the quote! Nice site, I havn't seen it before.
Maybe Sau is a niave wet behind the ears completely un-paranoid kind of Evil Lord? - Nay, he is paranoid all right! And too over-confident, IMHO, believing that nobody can know more than he himself does.

Good point about the Master of Esgaroth, LCOU
Many good points in other people messages also. Thanks about info on Moria gates, Olmer. Didn't know it before

Originally Posted by Valandil

Remember that the Nazgul had poor eyesight. After sacking Fornost in 1974, if his armies didn't stop there but continued on to ravage the Shire, the Witch-King may not have known that the people there were all little ("What... is this where they sent all their children? Whatever...") He may not have connected that with the knowledge later gained from Gollum.
Hmmm... did Sauron, W-K, et al, have any reason to think that Hobbits even WERE small people? I forget now...

May be, may be... but still he must have studied maps, while planning his moves, must have sent spies who brought reports back. He had a whole kingdom and a big army at his disposal then.
About hobbits, here is the quote from UT: "Sauron's fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum's account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort. Gollum would not know the term "Hobbit," which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would probably not use "Halfling" since he was one himself, and Hobbits disliked the name. That is why the Black Riders seem to have had two main pieces of information only to go on: Shire and Baggins."

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

About a year has passed after Sauron has questioned Gollum and before he sent the Nazgul to find the Shire IN THE VALES OF ANDUIN. It was exactly where they looked for 2,5 months (pleasure trip) After that Sauron got mad , treatened them with I can't even guess what and sent them to Saruman who (himself or Grima) sent them North-West.

According to UT it was infact the Southerner from Bree. The Nazgûl caught him making his way to Isengard, they made him tell them all he knew, and then sent him to Bree to spy for them.