What's with the pointy ears?

SamNotSoWise · 11-03-2003, 02:15 PM

Here's a question I've never seen addressed (if it has and I missed it, the moderator(s) can feel free to close this and re-direct me--thanks!):

Who decided that elves and hobbits had pointy ears? Nothing I've read in the books ever gave me that idea.

***Valandil*** · 11-03-2003, 02:23 PM

I agree that Tokien's elves and hobbits probably don't have pointed ears. JRRT goes to great lengths to describe hobbits - down to the hair on their feet - but doesn't mention pointed ears. Aragorn realized Arwen is an elf by the light in her eyes - not the points on her ears.

Probably common perception about elves (that they DO have pointed ears - like in all the little fairy story picture books I saw as a kid), I guess.

*trying to picture JRRT's elves helping a shoemaker*

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-03-2003, 02:24 PM

Well, most people do identify them with pointy ears, don't they? And this is the movie, not the books, and the movie wants to appeal to the non-Tolkien people. PJ did several things that deviate from the books I think, so as to simplify the story for those who haven't read the books. He sometimes IMO went a little too far. I'm surprised he didn't make the Elves 3 ft. tall, like Santa's helpers, or the Keebler elves. Afterall, that is how people view elves outside of Tolkien.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-03-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
I agree that Tokien's elves and hobbits probably don't have pointed ears. JRRT goes to great lengths to describe hobbits - down to the hair on their feet - but doesn't mention pointed ears. Aragorn realized Arwen is an elf by the light in her eyes - not the points on her ears.

Probably common perception about elves (that they DO have pointed ears - like in all the little fairy story picture books I saw as a kid), I guess.

*trying to picture JRRT's elves helping a shoemaker*

Couldn't have said it better myself. See above post.

***azalea*** · 11-03-2003, 03:10 PM

[Just to clarify for the thread starter -- there has been a lot of discussion/ debate in other forums (as well as whole threads) about pointed ears (stemming from I think a description of hobbits as having "leaf-shaped" ears), and there's been discussion in this forum, too, but to my knowledge no specific threads about it in a long time. Just FYI, you might want to do a search to view some of the other discussions about it if you're interested.]

I pretty much agree with what has been said -- PJ used pointy ears so that the audience could distinguish elves from humans when they appeared on the screen. I'm not opposed to his doing so (I'm not entirely convinced that they didn't have ears that were slightly pointed, but it's not really something I dwell on), because I know people that were indeed helped by it, and I'm sure there are many others, especially because of the fact that the general population is familiar with the widespread concept of elves, fairies, leprechauns, etc. having pointed ears.

***Valandil*** · 11-03-2003, 03:15 PM

Well I think we should get one more opinion on this.

Where's Spock...???

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-03-2003, 04:03 PM

Yes this has been discussed many times in the book forums. Tolkien says that Elves and Men were biologically the same, so I think that would mean from ears to toes. I once asked Michael Martinez how Sauron was able to tell Beren from the 11 elves when he stripped their disguises from them. He said: "All he had to see was the light in their eyes to know the difference."

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-03-2003, 04:35 PM

Origianlly posted by valandil

"Well I think we should get one more opinion on this.

Where's Spock...???"
____________________________________________
Actually, I've always had a theory that since the original Star Trek series writers and producers just take the easy way out of showing an individual, race, ec. is different by using pointed ears. (and it also cuts down on make-up costs, just slap on a pair of pointed ears).

Lollypopgurl · 11-03-2003, 07:10 PM

Didn't Tolkein write somewhere that they were "leaf-shaped"???

Kalimac · 11-03-2003, 09:56 PM

Tolkien indicated that hobbit ears were different than human ears in a letter to HM

Quote:

A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish' - The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 35 (#27)

Indicating that Tolkien thought hobbit ears were more 'elvish' looking than human.

Did hobbits have pointy ears?

So what do elves ears look like? There is some reference in Tolkien's work about the elvish ear being somewhat pointed, more than a human. That idea is supported by the language which refers to the ear as being 'leaf shaped'.

Here's a discussion about it with referernces:

Did elves have pointed ears?

So, there does appear to be some support for the idea that hobbits and elves had pointy ears. (And, Tolkien must have seen the illustrations. Wouldn't he have said something if he didn't approve?)

Sheeana · 11-03-2003, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lollypopgurl
Didn't Tolkein write somewhere that they were "leaf-shaped"???

Yes - in the etymologies of HoME 5, he mentions quendi ears as being leaf shaped, and more pointed than [?humans]. So, at one stage, he appears to have been considering pointy ears.

Gwaimir Windgem · 11-04-2003, 08:58 AM

Kalimac:

Note that Tolkien A) did not capitalize the "e" in "elvish", and B) put quote marks around it. I expect that he was referring to the typical fairy-elves of the soft'n'cuddly variety. If he meant the Quendi, I doubt he would have used the word in such a manner.

Melko Belcha · 11-04-2003, 10:10 AM

After The Hobbit was published Tolkien saw a drawing of Bilbo that he hated, he wrote a letter to the artist and said that Hobbits ears were pointed and elvish. At the time the letter was written the Hobbit was still not part of The Silmarillion legend, so when Tolkien said elvish ears he must have meant the common idea of elves having pointed ears, since very few people outside his family knew of the Quendi.

In HoME 5, in the etymologies there is one reference to the Quendi's ears being more leaf-shaped then Man's. So atleast in pre-LotR writtings Tolkien saw the Quendi as having leaf-shaped ears.

11-03-2003, 02:15 PM	#1
SamNotSoWise Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New York State, USA Posts: 41	What's with the pointy ears? Here's a question I've never seen addressed (if it has and I missed it, the moderator(s) can feel free to close this and re-direct me--thanks!): Who decided that elves and hobbits had pointy ears? Nothing I've read in the books ever gave me that idea.

11-03-2003, 02:24 PM	#3
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Well, most people do identify them with pointy ears, don't they? And this is the movie, not the books, and the movie wants to appeal to the non-Tolkien people. PJ did several things that deviate from the books I think, so as to simplify the story for those who haven't read the books. He sometimes IMO went a little too far. I'm surprised he didn't make the Elves 3 ft. tall, like Santa's helpers, or the Keebler elves. Afterall, that is how people view elves outside of Tolkien. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

11-03-2003, 04:03 PM	#7
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Yes this has been discussed many times in the book forums. Tolkien says that Elves and Men were biologically the same, so I think that would mean from ears to toes. I once asked Michael Martinez how Sauron was able to tell Beren from the 11 elves when he stripped their disguises from them. He said: "All he had to see was the light in their eyes to know the difference." __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

11-03-2003, 04:35 PM	#8
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Origianlly posted by valandil "Well I think we should get one more opinion on this. Where's Spock...???" ____________________________________________ Actually, I've always had a theory that since the original Star Trek series writers and producers just take the easy way out of showing an individual, race, ec. is different by using pointed ears. (and it also cuts down on make-up costs, just slap on a pair of pointed ears). __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

11-03-2003, 07:10 PM	#9
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Didn't Tolkein write somewhere that they were "leaf-shaped"??? __________________ a violinist...

11-03-2003, 02:23 PM	#2
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I agree that Tokien's elves and hobbits probably don't have pointed ears. JRRT goes to great lengths to describe hobbits - down to the hair on their feet - but doesn't mention pointed ears. Aragorn realized Arwen is an elf by the light in her eyes - not the points on her ears. Probably common perception about elves (that they DO have pointed ears - like in all the little fairy story picture books I saw as a kid), I guess. trying to picture JRRT's elves helping a shoemaker

11-03-2003, 03:10 PM	#5
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	[Just to clarify for the thread starter -- there has been a lot of discussion/ debate in other forums (as well as whole threads) about pointed ears (stemming from I think a description of hobbits as having "leaf-shaped" ears), and there's been discussion in this forum, too, but to my knowledge no specific threads about it in a long time. Just FYI, you might want to do a search to view some of the other discussions about it if you're interested.] I pretty much agree with what has been said -- PJ used pointy ears so that the audience could distinguish elves from humans when they appeared on the screen. I'm not opposed to his doing so (I'm not entirely convinced that they didn't have ears that were slightly pointed, but it's not really something I dwell on), because I know people that were indeed helped by it, and I'm sure there are many others, especially because of the fact that the general population is familiar with the widespread concept of elves, fairies, leprechauns, etc. having pointed ears.

11-03-2003, 03:15 PM	#6
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Well I think we should get one more opinion on this. Where's Spock...???

11-04-2003, 08:58 AM	#12
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Kalimac: Note that Tolkien A) did not capitalize the "e" in "elvish", and B) put quote marks around it. I expect that he was referring to the typical fairy-elves of the soft'n'cuddly variety. If he meant the Quendi, I doubt he would have used the word in such a manner. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

11-04-2003, 10:10 AM	#13
Melko Belcha Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Behind the Walls of Night Posts: 286	After The Hobbit was published Tolkien saw a drawing of Bilbo that he hated, he wrote a letter to the artist and said that Hobbits ears were pointed and elvish. At the time the letter was written the Hobbit was still not part of The Silmarillion legend, so when Tolkien said elvish ears he must have meant the common idea of elves having pointed ears, since very few people outside his family knew of the Quendi. In HoME 5, in the etymologies there is one reference to the Quendi's ears being more leaf-shaped then Man's. So atleast in pre-LotR writtings Tolkien saw the Quendi as having leaf-shaped ears. __________________ "....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5)

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