Elvish toils

[LickTheEnvelope]

Being new here I accidently misplaced my "I'M NEW!" thread and "What's with the Elves?" thread under LOTR Discussion. I am putting this thread in to further investigate my theory that Tolkien slightly modified the Elves from the Hobbit to the LOTR Trilogy.

Quote from Closed Thread:

To Mr. Lick I'd have to point out that The Mirkwood elves had more to fear than those of Lorien or Imladris because the tower of Dol Guldur was in southern Mirkwood and the whole wood almost had become a haven for evil beasts, i.e. spiders. The elves of Mirkwood may have been worried about spys of the Necromancer(otherwise known as Sauron) or maybe trespassing is a very important thing in the dangerous area of Mirkwood, you can't blame the elves for trying to protect themselves and being a little paranoid.

This is true that the Elves of Mirkwood would be cautious. In LOTR we see the Elves of Lorien with gaurds up against the maurading Orcs from Moria, same type of threats. I'm not trying to blame the Elves, and I know I have yet to get the whole back story and will read the Sil soon, but there seems to be some slight differences in attitudes between the Elves in the Hobbit and in LOTR.

Any Thoughts Anyone?

[inked]

LTE,

"I'm not trying to blame the Elves, and I know I have yet to get the whole back story and will read the Sil soon, but there seems to be some slight differences in attitudes between the Elves in the Hobbit and in LOTR.

Any Thoughts Anyone?"

I have recently attempted to reread THE SWORD IN THE STONE by TH White which was published within 2 years (earlier, I think) of THE HOBBIT. There is a whimsicality and anachronistic atmosphere there in TSTS which is reminiscent of the HOBBIT's treatment at times. I haven't been able to complete TSTS again as this is very off-putting for me. The tone, so to speak, is discernable in TH and particularly with the Elves and what, for lack of a better word, seems to be their silliness. I think, always open to correction by other Tolkein readers, that Tolkein was incorporating some of the very atmosphere which he seems to later reject in his essay ON FAIRY STORIES which was published in the fechschrift to Charles Williams (designed as a birthday present and published in honor of that Inkling after his unexpected death).

The elves in TH are without any air of the seriousness they acquire in LOTR.
They make silly rhymes and are importunate and annoying as Bilbo and company descend to Rivendell. Hardly the sort of guard one expects in a remote dwelling in a threatened land at all. But this sort of comparison comes only after one has read LOTR. If TH is read first, the comparison does not occur.

In this regard, the elves in TH are more like those spritish creatures revealed in fairy tales or as depicted in Disney's PETER PAN characterization of Tinkerbell (Tinkerbell in the book comes off better, I think). I suspect that Tolkein was influenced along these lines Barry's work and the storytelling he did for his children. In fact, I perceive the Elves in TH more as comic relief than the heirs of a great and central role in resistance to evil and Firstborn of Eru as they are revealed in LOTR and The Silmarillion.

Now, this is a bit off-putting when one goes back to re-read TH as I have done many times. For the serial re-reader with 3 decades experience, the problem developes increasing acuity unless one can divorce the two presentations and enjoy them separately, IME. One simply must accept that Tolkein wrote TH without intention of linking it to his work we know as TS and LOTR and without intent of publication. So it originally bore no organic unity to TS/LOTR. The unexpected success of the publishing venture and the calls from public and publisher for more hobbitry resulted in the rebuff of the material in TS. Tolkein's attempt to create a sequel took 1.5 decades and resulted in the LOTR - a very different sort of story for elves and men and Dwarves and Wizards altogether.

This difference brings a smile to my countenance every time I think of the much-desired and requested and expected making of TH as a movie by PJ et alia. The characterizations anticipated from the successful movie trilogy will be unlike anything true to TH. And the timeline won't let us demote Legolas to a pre-adolescent annoying gang member who sits at the entrance to Rivendell to harass travelers . And, I for one have difficulty Elrond, who is certainly not as the other elves are portrayed even in TH.

Your take?

[LickTheEnvelope]

This difference brings a smile to my countenance every time I think of the much-desired and requested and expected making of TH as a movie by PJ et alia. The characterizations anticipated from the successful movie trilogy will be unlike anything true to TH. And the timeline won't let us demote Legolas to a pre-adolescent annoying gang member who sits at the entrance to Rivendell to harass travelers

LOL ! good Answer!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Dol Guldur was formly home of the Necromancer yet after he fled one of the Ulari (Nazgûl) took his place. Now I'm guessing that the elves of Mirkwwod didn't know that the Necromancer had fled as it is possible that they were either travelling to or at the Lonely Mountain at this time and I doubt that Gandalf would have told the elves of Mirkwood before Elrond. Moria however was home only to orcs and the Balrog. The Balrog however I doubt would leave Moria and no one was fully aware of him before Gandalf's fall.

[Elemmírë]

The Elves are my favourite race in ME (and my obsession ), so I have to admit I was unable to get all the way through TH on the countless occasions where I have attempted to read it.

I agree with inked, but believe that the idea of Elves as portrayed in TH (while excessively annoying to me ) is not completely at odds with the portrayal in LotR and the HoME.

I am drawn to a quote from the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (*ahem* ... what else )

"Grown-up children" we, the guests, sometimes call you, my lord.

Andreth

Mm... short, yes, but enough. I'm sure this idea is in other books as well, though I don't at the moment feel like thumbing the LotR to look for it.

In many ways, the Elves seem to be something of a paradox, at least to the eyes of the Aftercomers. IMO, what we see in TH might just be this other aspect of the Elvish collective personality that has no opportunity to come across in LotR and the Silm for obvious reasons (war, mayhem, destruction, death, end of the world as we know it... )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The elves of Rivendell in TH are very different to the serious ones that you see in LotR.

[Valandil]

I don't see the different portrayals as contraditions, but rather as deepened understandings of Elves. They have this aspect to them, and this aspect as well... and yet another!

Perhaps not entirely surprising when we consider their nature, as further expounded upon by JRRT.

[Elemmírë]

Wow... was my post confusing.

What I meant to say was:

I agree with Valandil! I agree with Valandil!