Elves and returning to ME

afro-elf · 10-03-2003, 10:46 PM

Someone wrote this:

Quote:

According to 'The Peoples of Middle-earth' (History of Middle-earth Volume XII), in an essay about Glorfindel, Prof T talks about death and reincarnation/reformation. Elven bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintergrate and vanish. Elves who are 'reborn' in Valinor are actually re-formed as adults and can stay in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth

The formet part I am aware of. Eventhough Glorfindel is the only Elf mentioned as coming back. Does the ACTUAL TEXT say that Elves could back.

I do not have PoME, so I can't verify the quote.

Artanis · 10-04-2003, 01:16 AM

I think this is what you want:

Quote:

The Elves were destined to be by nature immortal', within the unknown limits of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm, and their disembodiment was a grievous thing. It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.

From PoME, Late writings, "Glorfindel".

There's also a chapter in Morgoth's Ring: Of re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos.

Arien the Maia · 10-04-2003, 02:16 AM

So basically if an Avari was slain, then he/she couldn't be reborn in Valinor b/c he/she had lived in Middle Earth and not Valinor?

Artanis · 10-04-2003, 02:30 AM

A very good question. I don't know the answer. I don't think Tolkien ever wrote anything significant about the Avari.

Oh Arien, just saw your title. Love it.

Attalus · 10-04-2003, 10:43 AM

As I understand it, any of the Eldar, be they Avari, Moriquendi, or whatever, if they died, will be returned to the Halls of Mandos.

Arien the Maia · 10-04-2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
As I understand it, any of the Eldar, be they Avari, Moriquendi, or whatever, if they died, will be returned to the Halls of Mandos.

aren't they summoned to Mandos, but they can refuse the summons right? If they refuse then there is no chance for re-bodiment.

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Oh Arien, just saw your title. Love it.

Thanks!

Attalus · 10-04-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
aren't they summoned to Mandos, but they can refuse the summons right? If they refuse then there is no chance for re-bodiment.

They can indeed refuse the Summons; but, no, they are eligible for Return and correction up until the very end. Also, yes, there can be no reimbodiment and they cannot return to Middle-Earth.

afro-elf · 10-04-2003, 10:16 PM

Quote:

The formet part I am aware of. Eventhough Glorfindel is the only Elf mentioned as coming back. Does the ACTUAL TEXT say that Elves could back.

I guess I am still the Elven Lord of Typing Errors

afro-elf · 10-04-2003, 10:18 PM

Artanis thank you for deciphering that post.

Eladar · 10-07-2003, 08:56 PM

AFAIK, the idea of Elves being reborn was abandoned by JRR.

Anyone have any sources to the contrary?

Then there is this from the Second Glorfindel Essay concerning Elves returning to Middle-earth:

Quote:

When did Glorfindel return to Middle-earth? This must probably have occurred before the end of the Second Age, and the 'Change of the World' and the Drowning of Numenor, after which no living embodied creature, 'humane' or of lesser kinds, could return from the Blessed Realm which had been 'removed from the Circles of the World'. This was according to a general ordinance porceeding from Eru Himself; and though, until the end of the Third Age, when Eru decreed that the Dominion of Men ust begin, Manwe could be supposed to have received the prmission of Eru to make an exception in this case, and to have devised some means for the transportation of Glorfindel to Middle-earth, this is improbable and would make Gorfindel of greater power and importance than seems fitting.

By the way, is there an account of an Elf, other than Glorfindel, who returns to Middle-earth?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-07-2003, 09:27 PM

As far as I can recall, Glorfindel was the only Elf to return to Middle-earth.

Artanis · 10-08-2003, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eladar
AFAIK, the idea of Elves being reborn was abandoned by JRR.

Anyone have any sources to the contrary?

I thought it was only the idea of the Elves being reborn as children that were abandoned, not the idea that they could be re-embodied.

Welcome to the moot, BTW.

Eladar · 10-08-2003, 07:19 PM

Yes, that is what I meant. Given new bodies in, reborn out.

Thanks for the welcome.

10-04-2003, 02:30 AM	#4
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	A very good question. I don't know the answer. I don't think Tolkien ever wrote anything significant about the Avari. Oh Arien, just saw your title. Love it. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

10-04-2003, 10:43 AM	#5
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	As I understand it, any of the Eldar, be they Avari, Moriquendi, or whatever, if they died, will be returned to the Halls of Mandos. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-04-2003, 10:18 PM	#9
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Artanis thank you for deciphering that post. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

10-07-2003, 09:27 PM	#11
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	As far as I can recall, Glorfindel was the only Elf to return to Middle-earth. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

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10-04-2003, 02:16 AM	#3
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	So basically if an Avari was slain, then he/she couldn't be reborn in Valinor b/c he/she had lived in Middle Earth and not Valinor?

10-08-2003, 07:19 PM	#13
Eladar Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 15	Yes, that is what I meant. Given new bodies in, reborn out. Thanks for the welcome.