Organized Crime

[Coffeehouse]

Organized Crime
------------------

War with no end in sight?
Who's winning? Who's losing?

Watching a documentary on organized crime, covering Central and North America, I was kinda shocked to see the size of the groups.. one numbered over 100,000 members worldwide, it's name MS-13.
And in countries really affected by it, USA, Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc, really didn't know how to stop the gangs from spreading because in many gangs becoming a member is a ticket to lifetime-membership, and if you try to quit.. good night.
It's just a massive, massive problem. So I was kinda interested in hearing opinions as to how communities, gov'ts and nations could tackle this societal virus.

I'll add an interesting essay on it:
http://www.hoover.org/publications/e...tml?show=essay, related to organized crime and how it permeates the public sector.

**And how about organized crime in Middle Earth? Sarumann's half-mad gang in the Shire at the end of LOTR is an example.. Possible that other groups exist?**

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Coffeehouse, I attempted to respond to this, but was distracted by the source.

I have no idea what foreign politician would be the equivalent, in public imagination, of Herbert Hoover in the US. Would Neville Chamberlain, in Great Britain? Would Marshall Petain in France? I just do not know.

I'm sure that Herbert Hoover is an underappreciated president, and was a fine human being. But the generation I answer to remember him as a man who wanted people to raise themselves out of the poverty of the Great Depression by local charity and working a little harder. He fed the Soviets, but restricted food at home. He criticised the programs FDR created as too centralized, and had American homeowners sign pledge cards to conserve according to his mandate.

And he had enough money (and gall) to endow a "research center' to make public policy recommendations?

My mind reels, I'm sorry. Most of the people I know who know who he is at all cross themselves and spit if required to use his name.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Coffeehouse, I attempted to respond to this, but was distracted by the source.

I have no idea what foreign politician would be the equivalent, in public imagination, of Herbert Hoover in the US. Would Neville Chamberlain, in Great Britain? Would Marshall Petain in France? I just do not know.

I'm sure that Herbert Hoover is an underappreciated president, and was a fine human being. But the generation I answer to remember him as a man who wanted people to raise themselves out of the poverty of the Great Depression by local charity and working a little harder. He fed the Soviets, but restricted food at home. He criticised the programs FDR created as too centralized, and had American homeowners sign pledge cards to conserve according to his mandate.

And he had enough money (and gall) to endow a "research center' to make public policy recommendations?

My mind reels, I'm sorry. Most of the people I know who know who he is at all cross themselves and spit if required to use his name.

Wow hehe.. Some names bring out a great deal of passion I see!

Yeah I know H. Hoover is by many Americans seen as a failure.

But I think it's kind of sidetracking? Yes the source is the Hoover Institution. But these two scholars are not writing on behalf of H. Hoover, but on behalf of their own research and their own fields of expertise.
This is not Hoover-history, but political science and economics.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Yeah, I started it...maybe when it's not so darn hot.

But as to gangs in the US...I think it's a very colorful subject, but people DO leave gangs. Often. The whole "wave of organized crime" or, as you put it, "societal virus," doesn't actually reflect the sort of ordinary life of people "in organized crime."

When I was growing up, there were some people whose families were 'in the Mafia.' Little guys, ran numbers. They went to church and little league. Later I knew people who dealt drugs in a big way. If they lived through that, they finally sobered up and now go fishing a lot. And a friend of mine has a husband who is top cop against gangs in a large city. It's scary, no doubt about it. He's on the news, and she worries about his safety at work. But they know people in gangs. I mean, he's in the community, and he wants people to do something else. He doesn't want his daughter to hang with bangers. But he's not relocating to a nice suburb, or even putting her in private school.

What am I trying to say...I dunno. I'm trying to say it's a continuum, maybe. Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. was, at the very least, pretty darn shady and racist, and at the most an outright criminal, but people go on. Am I making any sense? Probably not, lol.

[Mari]

I don't know if I know anyone in a gang. Probably not. Anyway, just wanted to say something about Japanese mafia, the yakuza. In Japan they are legal and the number of members etc. is all public.
Yakuza do extortion and shady business, but no outright break-ins mostly. Making use of loopholes and running gamblingparlors etc. For as far as I understand, you can get out of the Yakuza, depending on what sort of group you are in and how high up you are. It's usually up to the other members of the cell. A lot of members are 'foreigners' (3rd generation Koreans), burakumin, other people who don't have no place to go. Those first two groups apparently make up 83% of the total members.
And yeah, I got this information from films and class *is looking at her notes right now*

I know nothing about Dutch organized crime. Once in a while you hear about someone from the underworld getting killed, it being to settle things. We even have a special word for these sort of murders

[Coffeehouse]

Interesting that the Yakuza is public about its membership..

MS-13
-------
Absolutely, there are defectors from every gang. I mentioned the life-time ticket though, because according to the documentary I saw the behaviour and brutality of the largest gangs worldwide is becoming more extreme. Example is the MS-13, which now has a foothold in over half of the states in the USA. There has only been one single defector the last few years which has revealed important infortmation on the gang, and she thought she was safe in the peaceful countryside of Virginia, yet ended up being stabbed to death, and she was pregnant..
This group has its origins in El Salvador, but it 'owns' many square kilometers of turf in Los Angeles: using grafitti to mark where its territories begins, using extortion to take in safe money revenue from local shopowners and restaurants. And if other gangs trespass.. boom!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

But aren't you feeling that 'if other gangs trespass...boom" thing as kind of ...movie-like? There's no doubt at all that there are both criminals and gangs. But criminal activity feeds on people who a) are ethically compromised (like the preppy identity theft folk from Philly) and/or b) desperate. A great reason not to buy drugs, for example, is that the money ALWAYS winds up in the hands of bad people. But a lot of my tax dollars do, too. The ElSalvadoran gangs are a problem...so are the Irish ones. But they're not a sweeping plague...The FBI gang task force got about 2000 convictions nationwide in 2006. To contrast with that, about 1000 women a year are murdered by an intimate partner (3 a day) and the city of Philadelphia alone had over 400 murders last year. Over 100 already by now. update. Over 200.

The idea that gangs are the problem is kind of romantic. Lots of things are the problem.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

But aren't you feeling that 'if other gangs trespass...boom" thing as kind of ...movie-like? There's no doubt at all that there are both criminals and gangs. But criminal activity feeds on people who a) are ethically compromised (like the preppy identity theft folk from Philly) and/or b) desperate. A great reason not to buy drugs, for example, is that the money ALWAYS winds up in the hands of bad people. But a lot of my tax dollars do, too. The ElSalvadoran gangs are a problem...so are the Irish ones. But they're not a sweeping plague...The FBI gang task force got about 2000 convictions nationwide in 2006. To contrast with that, about 1000 women a year are murdered by an intimate partner (3 a day) and the city of Philadelphia alone had over 400 murders last year. Over 100 already by now.

The idea that gangs are the problem is kind of romantic. Lots of things are the problem.

There's nothing romantic about gangs Sis.

"According to City Attorney Rocky Delgadillo, whose prosecutors assisted federal authorities in the investigation: "The MS-13 gang is a significant threat to the public safety of all Angelenos. Law enforcement agencies must observe jurisdictional boundaries, but MS-13 gang members do not. MS-13 is a transnational gang with a strong presence in the United States and Central America This puts a premium on federal, state and local cooperation. Working together, we aim to eradicate the MS-13 gang."

""MS-13 has the unique, unfortunate ability to replicate themselves in similar ways across the United States, exactly like a virus,” said Brian Truchon, the director of the task force. “It is known for its ability to operate between borders, to effectively communicate and move between Central America and the U.S.”

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I don't thing gangs are romantic, Coffeehouse, I think you are romanticising the problem, based on one documentary TV show.

Los Angeles is a city. It's not a country, and it sure isn't THIS country. Something can be a huge problem there, and need a solution, and still not be an issue in Iowa.

If you have a gang victimizing a community that's largely composed of illegal immigrants (which happens often) what is the solution? No one wants to report anything, because they risk deportation, as much as retaliation.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I don't thing gangs are romantic, Coffeehouse, I think you are romanticising the problem, based on one documentary TV show.

Los Angeles is a city. It's not a country, and it sure isn't THIS country. Something can be a huge problem there, and need a solution, and still not be an issue in Iowa.

If you have a gang victimizing a community that's largely composed of illegal immigrants (which happens often) what is the solution? No one wants to report anything, because they risk deportation, as much as retaliation.

How exactly am I romanticizing gangs??

The problem with organized crime is that it isn't confined to one place. It crosses city borders, county borders, state borders, country borders, continental borders. And it is closely tied to drug trafficking, human trafficking, murders, abductions, large-scale blackmail. It's no small problem.

Let's take MS-13.
They depend on the sale of drugs be it Los Angeles, San Salvador or Washington D.C.
They are a market for drug cartels who can sell on a massive scale to gangs.
The drug cartels themselves are a problem in the countries they produce, be it Colombia, El Salvador or even Canada!
It's not a problem confined to one place. These gangs are an international problem. A problem.

But it seems you think they aren't that big a problem. What makes you think so?

[Mari]

I don't think that is what Sis is saying. She is saying that although gangs are a problem, there are many many other problems and that just getting rid of organized crime won't get rid of the many problems that can be found in for example Los Angeles, but also in other places.
And I think Sis is misunderstanding you as well.

[Coffeehouse]

Heh well... I frankly have no idea why one would assume I meant organized crime ranks as a more difficult obstacle than a string of other problems?

Unless I accidentally wrote that organized crime is a greater threat to society than say.. inner-city pollution, domestic violence or lack of health care? Did I?

I'll just reiterate what I asked originally:
War with no end in sight?
Who's winning? Who's losing?

In this thread I'm not interested in discussing whether H. Hoover was a poor president, if Joseph Kennedy was a racist, or why Iowa is not riddled with organized crime like LA is (though that does approach the purpose of this thread).

I want to discuss organized crime and how it is being fought against by gov't..

So.. Sis did raise one interesting question:
"If you have a gang victimizing a community that's largely composed of illegal immigrants (which happens often) what is the solution? No one wants to report anything, because they risk deportation, as much as retaliation."

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Well, I told you that this conversation is a little heavy for me, right now, and I have no intention of getting into one of our usual donnybrooks.

But I say there's no war. You've got all this dire "War with no end in sight" business going on, and I say it isn't happening.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Well, I told you that this conversation is a little heavy for me, right now, and I have no intention of getting into one of our usual donnybrooks.

But I say there's no war. You've got all this dire "War with no end in sight" business going on, and I say it isn't happening.

Lol okay I guess ignorance is bliss

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Coffeehouse, you're pretty ready with insults, here. Why would I be more ignorant than you are? I've been to all these cities, and you have not. I read newspapers and see news programming. And I'm politically active and a voter. I'm a little more suspicious of what these people say, and why. That doesn't mean I'm uninformed, and it's not nice of you to suggest that as the only reason anyone would disagree with you. When you don't play nicely with others, they lose interest in playing with you.

"Law and Order" rhetoric, especially aimed at immigrant groups, always raises my caution flags. Here's a pov reflecting that, from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/we...Hg&oref=slogin

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Coffeehouse, you're pretty ready with insults, here. Why would I be more ignorant than you are? I've been to all these cities, and you have not. I read newspapers and see news programming. And I'm politically active and a voter. I'm a little more suspicious of what these people say, and why. That doesn't mean I'm uninformed, and it's not nice of you to suggest that as the only reason anyone would disagree with you. When you don't play nicely with others, they lose interest in playing with you.

"Law and Order" rhetoric, especially aimed at immigrant groups, always raises my caution flags. Here's a pov reflecting that, from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/we...Hg&oref=slogin

Hehe well excuse me for not falling to my knees with this expert opinion of yours. I'm guessing you've been doing much research as you've patrolled the cities of LA and San Salvador for the "rare" sight of organized crime. Tell me how did that last interview go with that infamous druglord? And the anti-drug police? What did they say?

The mere fact that you've answered my arguments with your dislike of H. Hoover, J. Kennedy and a knee-jerk dismissal of 'the war on drugs'/'war on organized crime' tells me you're 1. Uinterested in a serious discussion, 2. not really that informed.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Here:

There have been several high profile cases in which gang members fleeing criminal prosecution in the United States have returned to Central America, and at least one in which someone wanted for a violent gang crime in Honduras fled to the United States and was caught by U.S. immigration authorities. And there is a well-known case in which a deportee from the United States was imprisoned in El Salvador, and while in prison there, contacted his former associates in a gang in the U.S. to urge them to commit a murder. But these cases, while dramatic, are few and far between; they are not the norm. Most of the criminal activities that Central American gangs engage in are local –such as violent gang rivalries, neighborhood drug sales, or extortion of local merchants – rather than transnational.



In fact, Central American youth gangs are not significantly involved in the major forms of transnational crime in the region. Wholesale drug trafficking is controlled by sophisticated criminal organizations; while some gang members may serve as “mules” or carriers, or as guards, youth gangs do not organize or control the cross-border drug trade. To quote the UNODC, “it is highly unlikely that gang members, who are generally young street kids, are the masterminds behind the movement of cocaine to the United States.” Similarly, youth gangs do not control human smuggling or human trafficking networks, though they may prey on or extort vulnerable migrants. Most forms of cross-border smuggling of goods are controlled by more traditional organized crime groups, not by MS-13 or 18th Street.



None of this is to say that youth gangs are not a serious threat to public security in Central America. They are one serious part of the problem of violence and crime in Central America, and governments need to take them seriously. But they are primarily a local and national threat, rather than a transnational one.

This is a direct quote from Testimony of Geoff Thale

Program Director of the Washington Office on Latin America

Before the

House Committee on Foreign Affairs

Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere

Hearing on

“Violence in Central America”
http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/tha062607.htm

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Here:

This is a direct quote from Testimony of Geoff Thale

Program Director of the Washington Office on Latin America

Before the

House Committee on Foreign Affairs

Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere

Hearing on

“Violence in Central America”
http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/tha062607.htm

What is your point?

[Coffeehouse]

Really though Sis, I'm completely uninterested in discussing this subject with you because from the first post you wrote (which didn't contain a single constructive word or sentence remotely relating to organized crime) you've been making no sense, and you fire off accusations that I'm romanticizing it, and that there is no war on organized crime, and that I'm wrong about this because I saw a documentary, and that you've been to LA and I haven't (congratulations!).

[Tessar]

If there is any more baiting, flaming, or non-debating in this thread, I will either close this discussion or begin asking people to desist from posting in it.