Elven Kings

[Finmandos12]

Who do you think was the best Noldor king?

[easterlinge]

If you'd said "Elven King" only, I'd say THingol.

But since you said "Noldor King" I'd say Fingolfin. It takes a lot of courage, personality and strength to lead the majority of Noldor across Helcaraxe Ice.

And no other Elf attempted personal combat with Morgoth!!!

[Elvellon]

But Fingolfin wasn’t the wisest of all, is crossing of the Helcaraxe was motivated by pride and revenge, and led to the deaths of many of is people during the crossing, and in ME. Fingolfin’s brother, Finarfin was much wisest, he did kept his wits during the quarrel of the noldor princes in Tuna, and returned home after the Doom of Mandos, keeping at least part of is people safe.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Without a doubt, I would say Finrod Felagund. He ruled the largest Noldorin realm in Middle-earth, and was the youngest of the great lords of the Noldor. Tolkien even describes him as being the wisest of the Exiled Elves.
I will probably get some heat for this, but I think people give too much credit to Fingolfin. Not that I dislike him, but he had alot of help from other Noldorin lords in leading the great host of the Noldor accross the ice, Finrod being one of them. Also, I have never been especially impressed by Fingolfin's battle with Morgoth. Although it was brave, it was also foolish. There was never any hope of Fingolfin being victorious, and him being a wise Elf, must have known that, but it seems that the challenge was made more out of rage then wisdom. Fingolfin's fall was sad though.
As for Thingol, true, he is not a Noldor, but he is a jerk. I blame him for the death of Finrod.

[Captain Stern]

Yeah why do people like Thingol so much?

I think he's a jerk too

[galadriel]

I've never cared much for Fingolfin... don't really *dislike* him, but he seems to be just another brave Noldor. And some of his actions were really unwise, such as the battle with Morgoth. Finarfin and Finrod were both much more prudent.

What's wrong with Thingol? Okay, so he was mean to Beren, but what was he supposed to say? "Hello, Beren, of course you can marry my only daughter, so that she can become mortal and die! Don't worry about the fact that we'll be parted in the afterlife and I'll probably never see her again, it's no problem at all!" You can't blame him *too* much for overreacting.

[Finmandos12]

Finrod is my personal favorite, for the reasons above. I also like Fingon, because of his brave rescue of Maedhros that united the two Noldor factions. Fingolfin may have been foolish sometimes, but he was honorable, and was in favor of attacking Morgoth when all that Feanor's sons wanted to do was have banquets and whatever else they did in their spare time.

[Theodred]

Finrod!
Wise and loyal, he was a great elf! I was sorry when he died!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by galadriel


What's wrong with Thingol? Okay, so he was mean to Beren, but what was he supposed to say? "Hello, Beren, of course you can marry my only daughter, so that she can become mortal and die! Don't worry about the fact that we'll be parted in the afterlife and I'll probably never see her again, it's no problem at all!" You can't blame him *too* much for overreacting.

Oh, but I can. In the first place, Thingol had a prejudice for men, long before Beren came along. In the second place, when Beren did come along, he sent him on a mission that in his mind assured Beren's death. He also knew of the oath that Finrod had sworn to Barahir when Beren showed him the ring. Finrod was Thingol's nephew, his blood, and he gave that no consideration. He knew that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. Thingol changed after Beren and Luthien returned with a Silmaril. As for being a loving father, he put his daughter at risk by sending her beloved on such a quest. As for being a husband, I will never understand Why one of the Maia would make such a choice. It seems that Thingol lived off of Melians power. I don't find him to be a particularly wise elf either. She could have had her pick, Why him? YUCK!!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Theodred
Finrod!
Wise and loyal, he was a great elf! I was sorry when he died!

Absolutely. One of the greatest, and maybe most under rated, or unrecognized Elves in the story by fans. A true hero.

[Finmandos12]

I almost cried when he died. Almost.

[Captain Stern]

Finrod is Thingol's nephew?

I thought Finwe married a Vanyar elf not a Teleri elf.

Thingol didn't send Luthien on Beren's quest, he actually locked her up to keep her from going untill she escaped.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Finrod is Thingol's nephew?

I thought Finwe married a Vanyar elf not a Teleri elf.

Thingol didn't send Luthien on Beren's quest, he actually locked her up to keep her from going untill she escaped.

I know it is confusing. You are thinking of Finarfin, who was originally Finrod. Finrod Felagund was originally Inglor the eldest son of Finarfin, but later he became Finrod. After he built Nargothrond with the aid of the Dwarves, they bestowed the title of Felagund upon him, meaning hewer of caves, so thereafter, he was called Finrod Felagund. Yes he is Thingol's nephew. Finrod's father married Earwen the daughter of Olwe who was Thingol's brother. So to claify, Finwe married Indis a Vanyarin Elf, who was the mother of Finarfin and Fingolfin and grandmother of Finrod and Galadriel who were brother and sister. I hope this helps clear up the confusion a little.
As for Thingol not sending Luthien with Beren, true, but the events that transpired came out of his plan and desire to have Beren die which endagered Luthien instead of excepting her love for Beren. When Thingol layed out this plan, he set a chain of events iin motion that would later lead to the death of Beren and the grief of Luthien which killed her, and also the death of Finrod. I think another good example of Thingol's selfishness and pride, was when Hurin gave him the Nauglamir (Spelling) of Finrod, and he took it with such greed and had the Silmaril placed within it. Of course that was the death of Thingol. So, not only did his greed and pride destroy his daughter's life, her husband's life and Finrod's, it was his own downfall as well.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
I almost cried when he died. Almost.

I did. It was awful.

[Captain Stern]

Oh, I confused Finarfin with Finwe silly me.


"Finrod's father married Earwen the daughter of Olwe who was Thingol's brother. "

So Thingol is Finrod's '2nd Uncle' and Luthien is his 'aunt'

[Captain Stern]

great uncle i mean not a 2nd uncle

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Oh, I confused Finarfin with Finwe silly me.


"Finrod's father married Earwen the daughter of Olwe who was Thingol's brother. "

So Thingol is Finrod's '2nd Uncle' and Luthien is his 'aunt'

I think Luthien is Finrod's cousin.

[Ñólendil]

Why do people like Thingol? You know, plenty of people like Morgoth. He's a cool character.

Finrod isn't Lúthien's cousin. Not first cousins. Finrod's mother is Lúthien's first cousin. So Finrod is the second cousin of Dior (Lúthien's child).

That is, Lúthien was Finrod's Great Uncle's (Thingol's) daughter. Lúthien's first cousins were Eärwen and Galadhon.

As for Thingol not sending Luthien with Beren, true, but the events that transpired came out of his plan and desire to have Beren die which endagered Luthien instead of excepting her love for Beren. When Thingol layed out this plan, he set a chain of events iin motion that would later lead to the death of Beren and the grief of Luthien which killed her, and also the death of Finrod.

I don't think that's very fair. Hate him for unintentionally causing a chain of events that ended in tragedy? Or anyway in sorrow, but it ended in light and joy. Beren and Lúthien as you know is one of the few happy stories from the First Age. For long Elwë was a racist and he was stubborn and proud, but he loved his daughter and wished no ill for her. Elwë really could not have done anything other than what he did. By his nature, that was doomed to happen. Which is no excuse, of course. However, he changed. He learned from his mistakes, he grew to love those whom he had hated and he changed. I think hatred given to Elwë for setting Beren out on his quest is sort of like hatred given to Túrin for all that he supposedly 'did'. Although it's even more ludicrous in Túrin's case as he was cursed by Satan.

I find it interesting of all the Ñoldoráni no one has picked Finwë, the first. Actually there hasn't been a lot of Noldorin Kings. There were Finwë, Curufinwë, Ñolofinwë, Arafinwë, Fingon, Finrod, Maedros, Turgon and Gil-Galad. That's it, isn't it?

It has just occured to me that the only full blooded Ñoldor here are Finwë and his son Fëanáro, how about that? Unless MÃ*riel was of the remote kin of Thingol or something (she alone among the Ñoldor had silver hair).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Inoldonil, I do not think I am being unfair to Thingol. Yes he eventually came around and had good feelings toward men. He even fostered Turin, but none of this happened until he had caused much pain and grief by trying to kill Beren. There is nothing wrong with protecting your child as he was doing. There is something wrong when you resort to such an extream and do it with the intention of causing anothers death. In this case he caused the death of eleven other people that were not involved. I do not compare events of Thingol, with events of Turin, for this reason: Turin was caught up in a curse laid upon his father by Morgoth. Turin was very prideful, but much of what happened was out of his control. Thingol made a choice. He was not under a curse, nor bound to an oath. He was prideful, selfish, and arrogant.

[Finmandos12]

And also Ionoldil, the only reason Thingol lost his hatred of men was because ofthe Silmaril he got from him. If Beren had come back without the Silmaril, he would not have liked him anymore than he did before.