Does Gandalf eventually die?

[The Marniner]

At the end of ROTK Gandalf sails from the grey havens. The task that he has been sent to do is completed. I was wondering would he evenventually die? Bilbo and Frodo would die being still mortals and obviously Elrond and Galadrial would not since they are immortal, but what of Gandalf. He is maiar, but his task is completed. Anyone wish to comment.

[Arien the Maia]

Maiar don't die. YThey (like the valar and the elves) stay on Arda until the end of the world.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Except of course for the fact that the Blessed Lands were removed from the Circles of the World.

I think that the "immortality" of the Maiar differed from that of the Elves. Obviously, they were created before Arda, and so would not be bound to it. I don't think they reincarnated, either; I believe that Gandalf was specifically sent back by Eru himself to complete his task, which would imply that most Maiar, if they were to "die", would not return.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Except of course for the fact that the Blessed Lands were removed from the Circles of the World.

I think that the "immortality" of the Maiar differed from that of the Elves. Obviously, they were created before Arda, and so would not be bound to it. I don't think they reincarnated, either; I believe that Gandalf was specifically sent back by Eru himself to complete his task, which would imply that most Maiar, if they were to "die", would not return.

But when the valar and Maiar came to ARda after it was created, they became bound to it....doesn't it say somewhere that as time wears on, even the Powers shall envy the gift of Men? I don't think Maiar/valar can be destroyed except by Eru.....perhaps if their body was destroyed then they couldn't be re-embodied, but I don't think that their spirit ceased to exsist, since they are naturally disincarate beings anyway

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hmm, good point, I'd forgotten about that. I agree that they don't normally die. But the Istari took upon them the bodies of Men, and all that came with those bodies, I believe. I really have no idea what became of Saruman when he died. Did he merely cease to exist? Was he cast into the Void? It seemed to me fairly obvious that he was not forgiven by the West.

[Lalaith]

I don't think that he dies. It would make no sense that he dies when all the other Maiar stay alive.

[Arien the Maia]

doesn't it say at the end of RotK that after Grima killed Saruman, that Saurman's spirit looked to the west but then blew to the east? does this mean that he will just sort of roam the world? what about Sauron, and the other istari?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The other Istari, I suppose just sort of faded, like the Elves, until they were no morewithin the confines of our world. Sauron I think went to the Void with Morgoth, but I'm not sure.

[azalea]

My answer would be "yes" and "no." It depends on what you mean by "death." If you mean "leave the physical body," then I would say yes, presumably when the world ends (then of course depending on what happens when the world ends), or if he would choose to cast off his physical form. If you mean "cease to exist," then I would say no, because as everyone has said, he is a spirit immortal.
As for Saruman, anyone can make a speculation. As I've said, I am always optimistic, and I believe he was brought back to Eru and hopefully redeemed, but with the direction that he would never be able to re-enter Ea, unless at the end of the world a new world is made, and perhaps then he could enter an "Arda unmarred."

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by azalea
As for Saruman, anyone can make a speculation. As I've said, I am always optimistic, and I believe he was brought back to Eru and hopefully redeemed, but with the direction that he would never be able to re-enter Ea, unless at the end of the world a new world is made, and perhaps then he could enter an "Arda unmarred."

what of Sauron and even Melkor? any chance of redemption for them in the void?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Hmm, good point, I'd forgotten about that. I agree that they don't normally die. But the Istari took upon them the bodies of Men, and all that came with those bodies, I believe.

It is true GW, that they took on these physical forms, but I don't think it means that they were subject to the fate of them. Remember that when Thingol died, Melian forsook her Elven form and fled in spirit back to Valinor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
what of Sauron and even Melkor? any chance of redemption for them in the void?

That's a good question, but if I were Eru, and created a new world, I don't think I would want to give these spirits that had been evil in Arda before the chance to ruin Arda re-made. I would think that if they were cast into the viod, it would be for eternity.

[Bombadillo]

To tell you the truth, I was under the impression that Gandalf was cool and he had connections, so he was allowed to keep his physical form forever, or until a time of his choosing.

Yeah, I know. I feel dumb.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Remember that when Thingol died, Melian forsook her Elven form and fled in spirit back to Valinor.

Are you sure she forsook her bodily form? I think I've read somewhere that Melian became bound to her body when she bore Thingol a child. It is also said that the Maiar became dependent on their physical forms by long use, they became bound to it by habit.

I'm not sure what happened to Gandalf when he returned to the West. I'd like to think that he was allowed to 'die', and leave the world, as a reward for his great accomplishments in the War of the Ring. I had a little discussion with Findegil a while ago, about where Saruman went when he 'died'. Then Findegil argued that the Istari did not only wear the physical forms of (old) Men, but by Eru's direct intervention they also got to share the fate of Men. I was sceptical then, but his opinion has been growing in my mind. (If you're reading this Findegil, you may cheer ) So, if this is true, then Gandalf's case was special among the Maiar, and he would 'die' after a short time in Valinor.

[Sween]

im sure they would of found some task for him to do round Valinor

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It is true GW, that they took on these physical forms, but I don't think it means that they were subject to the fate of them. Remember that when Thingol died, Melian forsook her Elven form and fled in spirit back to Valinor.

Yes, I didn't mean the Fate of Men, as obviously they were immortal. I meant that they got the aches and pains, and various physical trials of their frail mortal shells.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Are you sure she forsook her bodily form? I think I've read somewhere that Melian became bound to her body when she bore Thingol a child. It is also said that the Maiar became dependent on their physical forms by long use, they became bound to it by habit.

From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977

Therefore Melian spoke to none save to Mablung only, bidding him take heed to the Silmaril, and to send word speedily to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lorien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
what of Sauron and even Melkor? any chance of redemption for them in the void?

My vote on that is no. The only reason I would think it of Saruman is because he was on the good side for so long, and it was just toward the end of his time in ME that he became corrupt. On the other hand, he did twice refuse Gandalf's offer of redemption there in ME, so it is possible he had made his choice already. OR that he refused Eru's offer after the fact. But I like to think that he came before Eru and was redeemed, but with the pain of knowing how much suffering he had caused, and that he would have to exist feeling guilt for that, and knowing he can now do nothing to "pay his debt" in that respect (ie, help out again).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I thought that he was corrupted relatively early in their stay, it was just that he wasn't exposed until Gandalf went to him at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?

I must say, I rather like your idea, though. If he were truly redeemed, then I would think that would be a suitable punishment.

[azalea]

Well, let's see, when did they get there?