Vala meetings

Kirinki54 · 10-05-2002, 03:35 PM

In the time of LotR, which of the characters we know of had ever met a Vala?

Radagast The Brown · 10-05-2002, 03:40 PM

Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Cirdan... there are lots. Radagast too, of course.

olsonm · 10-05-2002, 03:43 PM

Gandalf
Galadriel
possibly Glorfindel
maybe Gildor Inglorin
Cirdan might have met Ulmo
Sauron
The Balrog
Saruman
Radagast
The Blue Wizards

That's all I can think of right now.

Radagast The Brown · 10-05-2002, 03:46 PM

Cirdan probably met Orome too.
Glorgindel? oh, yeah, right.
Gildor? neh...
maybe Smaug too?

olsonm · 10-05-2002, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Gildor? neh...

Gildor would depend on how Tolkien would have resolved his heritage.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-05-2002, 04:02 PM

Almost all the Caliquendi, High Elves (such as Gildor's company) would have met a Vala when they were in Aman for some thousands of years. Cirdan likely would have met Ulmo and any that were the Host of the west that defeated Morgoth, like Orome and Tulkas, as would have other Moriquendi (few, according to SIL) that were in the host or met with it after the war. Any of the Maiar, Like the wizards, Sauron, balrog, Bombadil, would have. Maybe Goldberry is Maiar. Shelob may have encountered on, but that is unlikely, since she likely would have been slain.

Radagast The Brown · 10-06-2002, 06:15 AM

Bombadil could be a maia, but almost no one knew in his life that... (except Tolkien). Elrond didn't see a vala until he went to Aman. Cirdan probably saw Orome in the beginning of the days, and could be he saw Ulmo too.

***Earniel*** · 10-06-2002, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Cirdan probably met Orome too.
Glorgindel? oh, yeah, right.
Gildor? neh...
maybe Smaug too?

Smaug? Mmm, I dunno, perhaps only Melkor. (he's still a vala, right?)

Radagast The Brown · 10-06-2002, 02:03 PM

Malkor was a vala, but when he started to do evil the other valar deposed him from the race (is it the right word?). Smaug defenately didn't saw Malkor when he was a vala.

Kirinki54 · 10-06-2002, 04:54 PM

What about the Eagles of Manwe? How do you think they kept in contact?

***Earniel*** · 10-06-2002, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Smaug defenately didn't saw Malkor when he was a vala.

How can you be so sure? Is it said anywhere?

webwizard333 · 10-06-2002, 07:47 PM

It's not said anywhere explicitly, but Smaug was too young to have evern come in contact with Melkor because Melkor had long since been thrown out of the world.

Kirinki54 · 10-07-2002, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by webwizard333
It's not said anywhere explicitly, but Smaug was too young to have evern come in contact with Melkor because Melkor had long since been thrown out of the world.

It is not said explicitly but there is a strong hint that Smaug was active and around in the First Age:

Quote:

I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong strong.

At least to me these mightier warriors of the old points to the Elves of the First Age. Nothing conclusive but still.

Radagast The Brown · 10-07-2002, 07:17 AM

Melkor wasn't a vala before he made the first dragon - therefore Smaug can't see him as a vala.

The eagles probably talked to valar too.

Millane · 10-07-2002, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Malkor was a vala, but when he started to do evil the other valar deposed him from the race (is it the right word?). Smaug defenately didn't saw Malkor when he was a vala.

i have a different view on that... my view is that forever Melkor was alwasy a vala he was just exiled if that makes sense... Like if a man was exiled from his country that wouldnt stop him being a man so my answer is that anyone who met Melkor at all weather in exile or not still met a vala.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-07-2002, 08:50 AM

Smaug was a young adult dragon thousands of years after Morgoth was deposed, dragons come to full adulthood in a few hundred years. Smaug would have been born/hatched/whatever thousands of years after Morgoths 3rd exile.

Radagast The Brown · 10-07-2002, 04:12 PM

Quote:

originally posted by Milliane
i have a different view on that... my view is that forever Melkor was alwasy a vala he was just exiled if that makes sense...

let see... Melkor was always an ainu, the great ones... The maiar and the valar together with some more creatures out of Arda. But he had been deposed from the "race" (help me with this word please) when he did mean, evil things.

***Earniel*** · 10-07-2002, 04:51 PM

Mmm, I'm still not convinced. Sure, the other Valar can say they cast him out of their order but in my view that doesn't make him un-Vala. As for Smaug I still think it's possible that he was around at the time of the first age. Perhaps only as a youngling, but still.

I'm just being stubborn here, ain't I?

webwizard333 · 10-07-2002, 06:39 PM

Quote:

I'm just being stubborn here, ain't I?

Yep!

In all seriousnes, however, Tolkien does mention somewhere that Smaug was hatched in the 3rd age. I'm looking for this passage right now, and I'll quote it when I find it.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 10-07-2002, 07:16 PM

Here's a list of all I can think of, listing only those characters specifically given a name, those marked with stars are possible, but we don't know:

1. Gandalf
2. Gildor *
3. Tom Bombadil (Maia or not, may have met a Vala at some point)
4. Goldberry (see above)
3. Glorfindel
4. Elrond * (may have saw Orome or Tulkas in War of Wrath)
5. Erestor
6. Galdor * (may have been Galdor of Gondolin, who in turn may have been born in Valinor)
7. Radagast
8. Saruman
9. The Balrog of MÃ³ria
10. Galadriel
11. Sauron
12. CÃ*rdan

I wonder about Elrond. He may have had a glimpse of a Vala in Beleriand before the War of Wrath. Elrond was being raised by Maglor, and Maglor stuck around. What makes me wonder in the first place is that Elrond says in his Council that the banners of the War of the Last Alliance reminded him of those seen in the War of Wrath. Perhaps as a child he saw mighty Tulkas striding ahead of an army, or at the side of EÃ¶nwÃ«, or walking with Nahar, full of laughter as The King Forester brandished his spear.

10-05-2002, 03:35 PM	#1
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	Vala meetings In the time of LotR, which of the characters we know of had ever met a Vala? __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

10-05-2002, 03:40 PM	#2
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Cirdan... there are lots. Radagast too, of course. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-05-2002, 03:43 PM	#3
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	Gandalf Galadriel possibly Glorfindel maybe Gildor Inglorin Cirdan might have met Ulmo Sauron The Balrog Saruman Radagast The Blue Wizards That's all I can think of right now. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

10-05-2002, 03:46 PM	#4
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Cirdan probably met Orome too. Glorgindel? oh, yeah, right. Gildor? neh... maybe Smaug too? __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-05-2002, 04:02 PM	#6
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Almost all the Caliquendi, High Elves (such as Gildor's company) would have met a Vala when they were in Aman for some thousands of years. Cirdan likely would have met Ulmo and any that were the Host of the west that defeated Morgoth, like Orome and Tulkas, as would have other Moriquendi (few, according to SIL) that were in the host or met with it after the war. Any of the Maiar, Like the wizards, Sauron, balrog, Bombadil, would have. Maybe Goldberry is Maiar. Shelob may have encountered on, but that is unlikely, since she likely would have been slain. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 10-06-2002 at 12:54 PM.

10-06-2002, 06:15 AM	#7
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Bombadil could be a maia, but almost no one knew in his life that... (except Tolkien). Elrond didn't see a vala until he went to Aman. Cirdan probably saw Orome in the beginning of the days, and could be he saw Ulmo too. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-06-2002, 02:03 PM	#9
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Malkor was a vala, but when he started to do evil the other valar deposed him from the race (is it the right word?). Smaug defenately didn't saw Malkor when he was a vala. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-06-2002, 04:54 PM	#10
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	What about the Eagles of Manwe? How do you think they kept in contact? __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

10-06-2002, 07:47 PM	#12
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	It's not said anywhere explicitly, but Smaug was too young to have evern come in contact with Melkor because Melkor had long since been thrown out of the world. __________________ Boo!

10-07-2002, 07:17 AM	#14
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Melkor wasn't a vala before he made the first dragon - therefore Smaug can't see him as a vala. The eagles probably talked to valar too. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-07-2002, 08:50 AM	#16
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Smaug was a young adult dragon thousands of years after Morgoth was deposed, dragons come to full adulthood in a few hundred years. Smaug would have been born/hatched/whatever thousands of years after Morgoths 3rd exile.

10-07-2002, 04:51 PM	#18
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Mmm, I'm still not convinced. Sure, the other Valar can say they cast him out of their order but in my view that doesn't make him un-Vala. As for Smaug I still think it's possible that he was around at the time of the first age. Perhaps only as a youngling, but still. I'm just being stubborn here, ain't I? __________________ We are not things.

10-07-2002, 07:16 PM	#20
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Here's a list of all I can think of, listing only those characters specifically given a name, those marked with stars are possible, but we don't know: 1. Gandalf 2. Gildor * 3. Tom Bombadil (Maia or not, may have met a Vala at some point) 4. Goldberry (see above) 3. Glorfindel 4. Elrond * (may have saw Orome or Tulkas in War of Wrath) 5. Erestor 6. Galdor * (may have been Galdor of Gondolin, who in turn may have been born in Valinor) 7. Radagast 8. Saruman 9. The Balrog of MÃ³ria 10. Galadriel 11. Sauron 12. CÃrdan I wonder about Elrond. He may have had a glimpse of a Vala in Beleriand before the War of Wrath. Elrond was being raised by Maglor, and Maglor stuck around. What makes me wonder in the first place is that Elrond says in his Council that the banners of the War of the Last Alliance reminded* him of those seen in the War of Wrath. Perhaps as a child he saw mighty Tulkas striding ahead of an army, or at the side of EÃ¶nwÃ«, or walking with Nahar, full of laughter as The King Forester brandished his spear. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

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