Aragorn,Denethor and the Crown.

[allsirgarnet]

This is my first post after joining tonight,so forgive me if this subject has already been covered.


Has anyone any thoughts on what might have occured if Aragorn had reached Gondor and entered Minas Tirith with either Denethor or Boromir alive and present?.

Aragorn of course had visited Gondor before as Thorongil and had been held in high esteem by all except maybe the Young Denethor,and many have speculated that his premature departure from Gondor was to do with Denethor.

Also into the mix can be added the fact that Denethor may have known Aragorns true identity at the time of the fellowship,and that this may have caused Gandalfs frosty reception on his arrival with pippin.

Just what would Denethors reaction have been on meeting Aragorn again after so many years,even if Aragorn just entered Minas Tirith as "Strider"?.And what of Faramirs more intuative grasp of humanity,would he have been more sympathetic?

[afro-elf]

A good question and one i've pondered myself.

I need time to think about Den and Boro; however, I think Faramir would have surrendered the rulership.

Someone else suggested that Boromir would claim the throne for himself.

[barrelrider110]

Denethor was a faithful, noble Steward at one time, but he was ambitious for Boromir and the visions in the Palantir distorted his view of the world. He was also a wise and learned man. I think that he would have challenged Aragorn's claim to the throne using the precedent that Arvedui’s claim to the throne of Gondor was rejected by the council.

Boromir had more to think about. He fought side by side with Aragorn, and had some time to ponder whether he was the rightful heir or not. I think that by the time the fellowship reached Parth Galen, he knew in his heart that Aragorn was the true king, but would he have yielded?

Boromir was “a proud and willful man.” He was also ambitious. He was seduced by power, as his temptation which led to the attempt to take the ring by force clearly showed. The stewardship had been promised to him probably as long as he could remember. If he and Aragorn arrived at the same time, what would he have done?

I think that Boromir would have taken his cue from Denethor and also rejected Aragorn’s claim. I could almost hear him say something like, “yea, and while we the true and faithful to Gondor gave our blood to keep the enemy in check, he was up north, ‘camping out,’ with the excuse of protecting a bunch of fat, lazy little farmers.”

Denethor and Boromir would have been formidable foes for Aragorn.

Faramir, as afro-elf said, would have recognized Aragorn for the king he was. Faramir was a very observant, and a keen judge of character. He also didn’t have any issues.

[bropous]

Very good question.

barrelrider110, I had thought I recalled that Denethor had used a Palantir as well, but I cannot find any reference to him using one. Do you have a page number available?

Had Boromir been in Minas Tirith, I cannot say for sure that he would not have accepted Aragorn's lordship of Gondor. Denethor may have pulled him aside and worked on his pride, finding some way to enflame Boromir's passions to keep the crown from Aragorn. Kin-Strife was not a foreign concept to Tolkien's works. Who knows, maybe there would have been civil war in Minas Tirith, the faithful against the faithless.

[Menelvagor]

I'm not so sure that Boromir would have refused Aragorn, but it would depend on how he got to be in Minas Tirith. If the scene at Parth Galen were to remain the same except that Boromir wouldn't die, then I think he might accept Aragorn. Denethor never would; maybe if Boromir wasn't dead he wouldn't have gone quite so crazy, but I don't think that even then he would give it up. Probably if both Denethor and Boromir were alive, Denethor would have convinced Boromir not to accept him, but if it were just Boromir, and then he would be the rightful steward,...
It would depend on how he got there.

Great question.

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

If everything happened the same (Aragorn storms the Field from the docks, then the Captains of the West march off and return victorious), it would be politically impossible to deny Aragorn the crown.

[luinilwen]

the references to the palantir that Denethor had are on pp. 114-117 of ROTK or the last few pages of The Pyre of Denethor

Then coming to the doorway he drew aside the covering, and lo! he had between his hands a palantir.

"Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long ago I guessed that here in the White Tower, one at least of the Seven Seeing Stones was preserved. In the days of his wisdom Denethor did not presume to use it, nor to challenge Sauron, knowing the limits of his own strength. ... He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see. The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless, often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind" - Gandalf

so i agree that denethor would have conceded the throne to aragorn before his mind gave way, and also that faramir, being as wise as his father, would have done the same.

as for boromir, i'm not so sure...

[FrodoFriend]

I think Boromir would've given the rule up to Aragorn, as long as he was sure Aragorn was Isildur's heir. Boromir may have wanted glory, for himself and Gondor, but he was still honorable. His heritage is important to him. He never seems to have much of a problem with Aragorn in the book.

As for Denethor and Faramir, definitely yes. They both knew their duty beyond doubt.

[bropous]

Thanks for the reference, liunilwen!

As for Denethor, FF, I think his knowing his duty had long passed by the time of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Page 142, RtoK, Denethor to Gandalf: "...So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.

"...I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house bereft of lordship and dignity."

I think even had Boromir come back to Minas Tirith with the intention of pledging his alegiance to Aragorn as King of Gondor, Denethor would have worked on him night and day on the side til he turned Boromir to dispute Aragorn's claim to the gondorian throne.

[FrodoFriend]

Whoa, Denethor said that? I stand corrected. I guess he was already a little crazy the whole time. Good call, bropous!

[allsirgarnet]

Some great replies ,so heres a few further thoughts.

Did Denethor have any RIGHT under Gondorean law to deny Aragorn the Throne ?

At the time of the last king the position of Steward wasnt i think hereditory but rather appointed by the current king.

It only became so after there were no more extant kings in Gondor because at that time their was no choice.And even though the incumbant steward had some role to play,it was the Council of Gondor that decided policy in the Kings absence as can be seen from their refusal of a claim to the thrown by someone from the Northern line.

One final point to make is i think interesting.

There must have been many people in Gondor of a similar age to Denethor,in positions of power and respect who would probably remember Aragorn from his previous time in Gondor as Thorongil.

Also remember the heirlooms that Aragorn carried and that regardless of what Elrond had previously said,the Sceptre of the Northern kingdom was his by right.

Given these two i think it hard for anyone to refuse his claim.

It was clear to many in Gondor that Denethor was "off" in some way.To support this take the actions of Beregond,who effectively disobeyed Denethors direct orders to save Faramir.He even opposed the Steward directly under arms.

"Something rotten in the state of Gondor" to paraphrase the Bard.

Lastly it is clear that Faramir would have been descisive given his recent direct role in military events.People had realised he had a strength equal to his brothers,not least of whom was his father.

What angered his father was Faramirs sense of compassion linked with his respect for Gandalf.Yu must remember the love between the brothers was very strong,so Boromir may not have automatically supported his father.

A final point is that Boromir had not seen his father for a long while and may himself have been shocked at his fathers changes.

Its implied that Denethor used the Palantir more frequently as time went on,especially after Boromir went north and then as open war approached.This had recognisable effects on him as is appatent from the tail.

Lastly we have what might have happened if the fellowship (less the Hobbits) had stayed together,with Boromir alive and accompanying Aragorn et al to Rohan,Helms Deep and so on.

Think of how his opinion of Aragorn might have changed,especially if he saw him accept and use the Palantir of Orthanc.By the time he reached Gondor even if he didnt take the paths of the dead,he would probably have thought Aragorn the true king.

Thoughts my friends?

[barrelrider110]

Did Denethor have any RIGHT under Gondorean law to deny Aragorn the Throne ?

He did not have the right. As correctly stated, the Steward was bound by the law and also obliged to consider the Council of Gondor. For the Steward to deny the king the throne, he would have needed the full support of the council.

And as also correctly stated, the bloodline of the King of the North did not assure the acceptance of the King of Arnor's soveriegnty over Gondor as High King. The council had once previously, on the advice of the Steward, denied Arvedui of Arnor the throne of Gondor via his wife Firiel, the deceased King of Gondor’s only surviving child.

Aragorn in any event would not have declared himself king until the war had been won. Consider the following excerpt from LOTR B5, Ch. 8:

But this City and realm has rested in the charge of the Stewards for many long years, and I fear that if I enter it unbidden, then doubt and debate may arise, which should not be while this war is fought. I will not enter in, nor make any claim, until it be seen whether we or Mordor shall prevail. Men shall pitch my tents upon the field, and here I will await the welcome of the Lord of the City.'

After the war had been won, Aragorn would have been recognized by all, without question. Consider Faramir's declaration:

‘Behold, one has come to claim the kingship again at last. Here is Aragorn, son of Arathorn, chieftain of the Dunedain of Arnor, Captain of the Host of the West, bearer of the Star of the North, wielder of the Sword Reforged, victorious in battle, whose hand brings healing, the Elfstone, Elessar of the line of Valandil, Isildur’s son, Elendil’s son of Numenor.’

[bropous]

"Possession is nine-tenths of the law" applies here. Had Denethor, as legal Steward, opposed the coronation of Aragorn, there would have been those in Minas Tirith who would have followed his lead. Had Denethor stood in Aragorn's way, there would have been civil war in Gondor, which would have worked out perfectly in Sauron's schemes.

[allsirgarnet]

I'm not sure that many would have stood with Denethor.Consider the story as we know it to be.The field of Pelennor just after the battle we see Aragorn with Imrahil,probably the most powergul person in Gondor after the Stewards line.He seems at ease with Aragorns Status as "'king",and even warns him that Denethor is a bit "'off".

Add to this Aragorns recent actions at erech and pelagir,plus the support of Eomer and Rohan and Denethor is left with very little to support him,even if he is in possession.

Boromir may not have supported him even if he had lived.Assume he accompanied Aragorn at least until just before Aragorn enters the paths of the dead,i'm sure by that time he would have accepted him as King in all but name.

Aragorn himself its clear was worried about civil war as is clear from his words,but to make that judgement he was probably going by his experience as Thorongil many years before.Things had changed in Gondor by this time and i get the feeling that many longed for change and would have welcomed Aragorn readily.