Gandalf's seeming reticence

rdolivaw · 01-03-2002, 05:44 PM

I took my kids and my wife to LOTR:FOTR the other afternoon (second viewing for me and the kids, first for my wife). Said wife is basically familiar with the work, but has only read it once, several years ago, not being a big fan of fantasy. I and the boys have read most of Tolkein's works several times and all enjoyed the movie, as movie and for itself, greatly; as much, though certainly differently, as we've enjoyed the written Word through the years (my 13-year-old has even waded through Silmarillion twice and I've been through LOTR a couple dozen times since the '60s).

Anyway, my wife was wondering on the way home "how come Gandalf didn't use his power more to protect and defend the fellowship?" I pointed out his defense against the balrog and during the abortive attempt to cross Carhadras, but that seemed inadequate. I also mentioned that use of his powers would reveal their position and, while I think that's sufficient, she did not.

Any other thoughts on Gandalf's seeming reticence? I think the secrecy issue is sufficient (though it seemed that an awful lot of creatures knew exactly where they were).

Boonton · 01-03-2002, 06:23 PM

Reading the FAQ's from other sights, Galdalf is one of 5 wizards who were sent by Tolkein's conception of God to fight Sauron. However, they are only allowed to use limited powers and cannot dominate or use force upon others. So most of Galdalf's work is done in encouraging and rallying others or in sweaty fighting with swords rather than casting spells to solve problems.

Wayfarer · 01-03-2002, 06:24 PM

That wasn't in the job description.

The Istari were explicitly told that they were NOT to attempt to oppose Sauron strength for strength. They were merely yo aid the free people in defending themselves. This is what gandalf did.

Notice that, with the balrog, who was a foe beyond anybody else, he instantly went up against it. But he couldn't do that with sauron, yet.

rdolivaw · 01-04-2002, 11:26 AM

Thanks, both of you. That's just right, I now remember (gotta dust off the books and dig back in, I guess). You're right. Even Sauroman was restrained, at least in the books, which is why he had to work with all those nassssty orcsses, and why he was so desperatly looking for the ring himself. BTW, that was a surprising change, to have Sauroman in league with the Big S from the beginning, instead of trying to work his own deal. Guess they felt it was too complex to deal with in the detail it needed.

Thanks.

bropous · 01-05-2002, 02:00 AM

Recall from the book, rdolivaw, when the Fellowship are trying ot start a fire on Caradhras, to keep from freezing, and Gandalf uses his powers to light the soggy "faggots"? After he does so, he says:

"...I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin."

Had Gandalf used his powers moreso, Sauron, with his far-reaching gaze, would have "locked in" on the Fellowship, and to see an Istari travelling southwards with halflings in tow, he would have immediately known the intentions of the Free Peoples and sent his Nazgul to collect the One Ring forthwith.

Also, let's recall that, prior to his "resurrection" after the fight with the Balrog which brought down the top of Caradhras, Gandalf was the "Grey". His powers were rather limited at that point, the greatest powers of the Istari being entrusted to Saruman/Curunir. Although he may have been second greatest in power, he was almost bested by the Balrog, a remnant of Morgoth's terrors of the First Age.

Also, let us recall who Sauron himself was. He was a Maiar, of tremendous malice and strength; although the Istari were great spirits as well, they had nowhere near as much power as did the Lieutenant of the Great Enemy Morgoth himself. Each of the Istari could not face Sauron himself in direct battle and succeed, let alone all five at once. Their strength, as stated in a prior post, was in encouraging and rallying others' efforts, and not to square off with Sauron directly. Gandalf struggled with Sauron in the Enemy's guise of the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, but let us also recall Sauron was not nearly up to the strength level then as he was when the Fellowship of the Ring begins.

Excellent question, rdolivaw!

rdolivaw · 01-05-2002, 06:06 PM

Thanks, bropous. Great answer and well documented. A printout will be submitted to my wife for perusal forthwith.

Richard.

emplynx · 01-05-2002, 07:28 PM

A Quote from The Complete Guide to Middle Earth

Quote:

They (the Istari) were forbidden to dominate the peoples of Middle-Earth or to match Sauron's power with power. When Saruman, the greatest of the Wizards, disobeted this injunction, he was cast from the order and banished from Valinor

bropous · 01-05-2002, 10:42 PM

Glad to help, Richard. :- )

Spock · 01-06-2002, 01:23 PM

Sometimes you just have to have faith.

bropous · 01-06-2002, 01:27 PM

emplynx, I am curious: Who wrote "The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth", and is there a cite listed after the quote, "They (the Istari) were forbidden to dominate the peoples of Middle-Earth or to match Sauron's power with power..."? I'd be interested as to where in Tolkien's writings this information comes.

Thanks in advance! ;- )

bropous · 01-06-2002, 01:32 PM

A little more info on the Balrog:

The Balrogs, also known as the Valaraukar, were spirits known as "Maiar". Both Olorin/Gandalf, and Gorthaur/Sauron, were also Maiar. Now, Maiar were allowed different levels of their full power in Middle-Earth, but Sauron and the Valaraukar, not being obedient of the Valar, the "gods" of Middle-Earth, id not hold to this stricture and retained the majority of their Maiarian power in Middle-Earth.

Olorin/Gandalf could not face Gorthaur/Sauron power-for-power, even though he was "wisest of the Maiar", nor could he unleash on the Valaraukar/Balrog the full might of his power. So, the Balrog is able to hold him off for the majority of the battle, but Olorin begins to pull more of his power as he is "transitioning" into The White, and the Balrog turns tail and runs.

I may have this wrong, though. What do you other mooters think on this issue?

Rána Eressëa · 01-07-2002, 07:30 PM

Well, these are all good theories, but there's something big people keep missing.

Notice how every time Gandalf is inabled to do anything, he is without his staff. Examples: he's stuck on top of Isengard and can't do anything and doesn't have his staff. He tried holding back the Balrog, but when he slips, he drops his staff down the pit, once again, he is inable to do anything.

Anyone see a pattern catching on? It seems that Gandalf's staff is the sorce of his power. In fact, every time a wizard uses his powers he ALWAYS is holding his staff. Anyone agree with me here?

Lightice · 01-08-2002, 10:04 AM

I don't agree. Firstly, he didnt't drop his staff at the Bridge of Khazad Dum. He struct it to stone, shattering it, but destroying half of the bridge in the process. I doubt, that he had done that, if the staff was source of his powers. And he did beat up the balrog without his staff, and I don't think, that he could had done that with only his physical strength.
I take this as you haven't read the books? There was no wizard duel in books. It was Jackson's idea. Not Tolkien's.
Any way, I think, that Gandalf couldn't escape becouse of fall of hundreds of foots and hordes of orcs at ground. I don't think, that he could had escaped, with most of his bones broken, with no time to heal himself (if he could do that, that is pretty likely, though).

Rána Eressëa · 01-08-2002, 01:49 PM

Yes, I read the books. And I also never mentioned there being a wizard duel. I mentioned Gandalf was stuck at the top of the tower of Isengard. That did happen in the books, remember the part where he was rescued by Gwaihir, the great eagle? I think you should pay more attention to my words next time.

And also, in the book, he fell and was still holding his staff, in the movie, he was clinging to the bridge with BOTH hands and was NOT holding the staff. Any ways, anytime he is capable of most magic, he HAS his staff. The same with Saruman. What I'm basically trying to say is, the greatest of their powers is conjured up within THEM from their staffs, but they are STILL capable of some magic without it. See what I'm saying?

Lightice · 01-08-2002, 02:55 PM

I see it, but I still don't agree. I know very well, that there was no wizard duel in books.
I also can't understand, how would maia spirit be weakened if wooden stick is taken away from him. And I remember very well, that Gandalf's staff was broken in Bridge of Khazad Dum while he dropped balrog off it (destroying the bridge). And you still didn't explain, how could Gandalf defeat balrog with bare arms, or even Glamdring, if he could not use magic without his staff.

Rána Eressëa · 01-08-2002, 03:34 PM

Okay, I see your point there. It's been about three months since I last read the books. I'll go over them again.

But, once again, I NEVER mentioned there being a wizard duel in the books! Please stop saying that!

bropous · 01-08-2002, 04:25 PM

One point: Gandalf did not hit "bottom" of the chasm at Khazad-Dum and break all his bones. The Balrog fled, and Gandalf followed it, through long-forgotten passages, all the way to the summit of Caradhras. Kinda hard to do if your bones have been pulverized, physical incarnation of Maiar or no.

ChildofEru · 01-08-2002, 06:50 PM

RE has a point in that Gandalf in talking away all of Saruman's power, (all but his power of persuasion), he also broke Saruman's staff. while I dont thing the staff is a source for power. I do think it is a symbol of it.

Wayfarer · 01-08-2002, 08:17 PM

Heh... speaking of gandalf's staff.

Notice that, prior to moria (in the movie) , it's just a plain wooden staff. I seem to recall seeing gandalf pick up a small white stone off the ground and place it in on the end, and then cause it to glow.

So, it seems that he can use veryday objects (like a stone, or, in the books, a pipe or a pinecone,) as conduits of power, but he doesn't depend on them, like sauron with the ring.

ChildofEru · 01-08-2002, 10:17 PM

so your saying Gandalf must have something to use their power though?
so if he was in space (note this is only a theory and has no pratical use) he would have no power?

01-03-2002, 05:44 PM	#1
rdolivaw Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 6	Gandalf's seeming reticence I took my kids and my wife to LOTR:FOTR the other afternoon (second viewing for me and the kids, first for my wife). Said wife is basically familiar with the work, but has only read it once, several years ago, not being a big fan of fantasy. I and the boys have read most of Tolkein's works several times and all enjoyed the movie, as movie and for itself, greatly; as much, though certainly differently, as we've enjoyed the written Word through the years (my 13-year-old has even waded through Silmarillion twice and I've been through LOTR a couple dozen times since the '60s). Anyway, my wife was wondering on the way home "how come Gandalf didn't use his power more to protect and defend the fellowship?" I pointed out his defense against the balrog and during the abortive attempt to cross Carhadras, but that seemed inadequate. I also mentioned that use of his powers would reveal their position and, while I think that's sufficient, she did not. Any other thoughts on Gandalf's seeming reticence? I think the secrecy issue is sufficient (though it seemed that an awful lot of creatures knew exactly where they were). __________________ R. D. Olivaw

01-03-2002, 06:23 PM	#2
Boonton Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1	Why Gandalf doesn't fight Reading the FAQ's from other sights, Galdalf is one of 5 wizards who were sent by Tolkein's conception of God to fight Sauron. However, they are only allowed to use limited powers and cannot dominate or use force upon others. So most of Galdalf's work is done in encouraging and rallying others or in sweaty fighting with swords rather than casting spells to solve problems.

01-03-2002, 06:24 PM	#3
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	That wasn't in the job description. The Istari were explicitly told that they were NOT to attempt to oppose Sauron strength for strength. They were merely yo aid the free people in defending themselves. This is what gandalf did. Notice that, with the balrog, who was a foe beyond anybody else, he instantly went up against it. But he couldn't do that with sauron, yet. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-04-2002, 11:26 AM	#4
rdolivaw Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 6	Thanks, both of you. That's just right, I now remember (gotta dust off the books and dig back in, I guess). You're right. Even Sauroman was restrained, at least in the books, which is why he had to work with all those nassssty orcsses, and why he was so desperatly looking for the ring himself. BTW, that was a surprising change, to have Sauroman in league with the Big S from the beginning, instead of trying to work his own deal. Guess they felt it was too complex to deal with in the detail it needed. Thanks. __________________ R. D. Olivaw

01-05-2002, 02:00 AM	#5
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Recall from the book, rdolivaw, when the Fellowship are trying ot start a fire on Caradhras, to keep from freezing, and Gandalf uses his powers to light the soggy "faggots"? After he does so, he says: "...I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin." Had Gandalf used his powers moreso, Sauron, with his far-reaching gaze, would have "locked in" on the Fellowship, and to see an Istari travelling southwards with halflings in tow, he would have immediately known the intentions of the Free Peoples and sent his Nazgul to collect the One Ring forthwith. Also, let's recall that, prior to his "resurrection" after the fight with the Balrog which brought down the top of Caradhras, Gandalf was the "Grey". His powers were rather limited at that point, the greatest powers of the Istari being entrusted to Saruman/Curunir. Although he may have been second greatest in power, he was almost bested by the Balrog, a remnant of Morgoth's terrors of the First Age. Also, let us recall who Sauron himself was. He was a Maiar, of tremendous malice and strength; although the Istari were great spirits as well, they had nowhere near as much power as did the Lieutenant of the Great Enemy Morgoth himself. Each of the Istari could not face Sauron himself in direct battle and succeed, let alone all five at once. Their strength, as stated in a prior post, was in encouraging and rallying others' efforts, and not to square off with Sauron directly. Gandalf struggled with Sauron in the Enemy's guise of the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, but let us also recall Sauron was not nearly up to the strength level then as he was when the Fellowship of the Ring begins. Excellent question, rdolivaw! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-05-2002, 06:06 PM	#6
rdolivaw Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 6	Thanks, bropous. Great answer and well documented. A printout will be submitted to my wife for perusal forthwith. Richard. __________________ R. D. Olivaw

01-05-2002, 10:42 PM	#8
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Glad to help, Richard. :- ) __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-06-2002, 01:23 PM	#9
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Sometimes you just have to have faith. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-06-2002, 01:27 PM	#10
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	emplynx, I am curious: Who wrote "The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth", and is there a cite listed after the quote, "They (the Istari) were forbidden to dominate the peoples of Middle-Earth or to match Sauron's power with power..."? I'd be interested as to where in Tolkien's writings this information comes. Thanks in advance! ;- ) __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-06-2002, 01:32 PM	#11
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	A little more info on the Balrog: The Balrogs, also known as the Valaraukar, were spirits known as "Maiar". Both Olorin/Gandalf, and Gorthaur/Sauron, were also Maiar. Now, Maiar were allowed different levels of their full power in Middle-Earth, but Sauron and the Valaraukar, not being obedient of the Valar, the "gods" of Middle-Earth, id not hold to this stricture and retained the majority of their Maiarian power in Middle-Earth. Olorin/Gandalf could not face Gorthaur/Sauron power-for-power, even though he was "wisest of the Maiar", nor could he unleash on the Valaraukar/Balrog the full might of his power. So, the Balrog is able to hold him off for the majority of the battle, but Olorin begins to pull more of his power as he is "transitioning" into The White, and the Balrog turns tail and runs. I may have this wrong, though. What do you other mooters think on this issue? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-07-2002, 07:30 PM	#12
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Well, these are all good theories, but there's something big people keep missing. Notice how every time Gandalf is inabled to do anything, he is without his staff. Examples: he's stuck on top of Isengard and can't do anything and doesn't have his staff. He tried holding back the Balrog, but when he slips, he drops his staff down the pit, once again, he is inable to do anything. Anyone see a pattern catching on? It seems that Gandalf's staff is the sorce of his power. In fact, every time a wizard uses his powers he ALWAYS is holding his staff. Anyone agree with me here?

01-08-2002, 10:04 AM	#13
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	I don't agree. Firstly, he didnt't drop his staff at the Bridge of Khazad Dum. He struct it to stone, shattering it, but destroying half of the bridge in the process. I doubt, that he had done that, if the staff was source of his powers. And he did beat up the balrog without his staff, and I don't think, that he could had done that with only his physical strength. I take this as you haven't read the books? There was no wizard duel in books. It was Jackson's idea. Not Tolkien's. Any way, I think, that Gandalf couldn't escape becouse of fall of hundreds of foots and hordes of orcs at ground. I don't think, that he could had escaped, with most of his bones broken, with no time to heal himself (if he could do that, that is pretty likely, though).

01-08-2002, 01:49 PM	#14
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Yes, I read the books. And I also never mentioned there being a wizard duel. I mentioned Gandalf was stuck at the top of the tower of Isengard. That did happen in the books, remember the part where he was rescued by Gwaihir, the great eagle? I think you should pay more attention to my words next time. And also, in the book, he fell and was still holding his staff, in the movie, he was clinging to the bridge with BOTH hands and was NOT holding the staff. Any ways, anytime he is capable of most magic, he HAS his staff. The same with Saruman. What I'm basically trying to say is, the greatest of their powers is conjured up within THEM from their staffs, but they are STILL capable of some magic without it. See what I'm saying? Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 01-08-2002 at 01:52 PM.

01-08-2002, 02:55 PM	#15
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	I see it, but I still don't agree. I know very well, that there was no wizard duel in books. I also can't understand, how would maia spirit be weakened if wooden stick is taken away from him. And I remember very well, that Gandalf's staff was broken in Bridge of Khazad Dum while he dropped balrog off it (destroying the bridge). And you still didn't explain, how could Gandalf defeat balrog with bare arms, or even Glamdring, if he could not use magic without his staff.

01-08-2002, 03:34 PM	#16
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Okay, I see your point there. It's been about three months since I last read the books. I'll go over them again. But, once again, I NEVER mentioned there being a wizard duel in the books! Please stop saying that! Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 01-08-2002 at 03:40 PM.

01-08-2002, 04:25 PM	#17
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	One point: Gandalf did not hit "bottom" of the chasm at Khazad-Dum and break all his bones. The Balrog fled, and Gandalf followed it, through long-forgotten passages, all the way to the summit of Caradhras. Kinda hard to do if your bones have been pulverized, physical incarnation of Maiar or no. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-08-2002, 06:50 PM	#18
ChildofEru Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 24	RE has a point in that Gandalf in talking away all of Saruman's power, (all but his power of persuasion), he also broke Saruman's staff. while I dont thing the staff is a source for power. I do think it is a symbol of it. __________________ Theres a lesson here... its better to watch stuff then to do stuff - Homer Simpson

01-08-2002, 08:17 PM	#19
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Heh... speaking of gandalf's staff. Notice that, prior to moria (in the movie) , it's just a plain wooden staff. I seem to recall seeing gandalf pick up a small white stone off the ground and place it in on the end, and then cause it to glow. So, it seems that he can use veryday objects (like a stone, or, in the books, a pipe or a pinecone,) as conduits of power, but he doesn't depend on them, like sauron with the ring. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-08-2002, 10:17 PM	#20
ChildofEru Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 24	so your saying Gandalf must have something to use their power though? so if he was in space (note this is only a theory and has no pratical use) he would have no power? __________________ Theres a lesson here... its better to watch stuff then to do stuff - Homer Simpson

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR	Wally	Lord of the Rings Movies	425	08-14-2016 08:43 AM
Gandalf's second staff	The Wizard from Milan	Lord of the Rings Movies	34	06-12-2005 08:17 PM
Gandalf's words to Denethor	Artanis	Lord of the Rings Books	13	06-07-2003 03:21 PM
Why didn't Saruman take Gandalf's Ring?	cassiopeia	Lord of the Rings Books	21	05-20-2003 10:25 PM
Now a nightmare song list	coolismo	Lord of the Rings Movies	13	01-27-2002 03:13 PM