Invisibility

Menelvagor · 05-26-2002, 08:56 PM

I've been trying to ponder this out.

Did the ring make Sauron invisible like all the other ring bearers? Probably not, seeing as he could control it, though he could probably have used the ring to make himself invisible if he wanted too. Also, it would be very unlikely that he was invisible during the fight with Isildur, because that would put the cutting off of the ring as pure chance, which seems unlikely. So, Sauron was not involuntarily invisible (that sounds odd) when he wore the ring, why were the other ringbearers? Either they didn't have enough power innately to begin with to force the ring to not make them invisible (which implys that, for some unknown reason, the ring automaticly made its bearer invisible unless commanded otherwise) or that the ring chose to make the bearer invisible. Or it is a combinartion of the two, the ring chose to make you invisible unless you had enough power of your own to command it otherwise. If this is so then my question is, why?

The other aspect of it is, that turning invisible was just a side effect of entering the wraith world. You left the world of visible light and entered the shadowy evil one. This would of course aid the servents of the dark lord searching for the ring. It is less evident, though, early after the ring was lost, presumably because Sauron was searching less eagerly for it.

So then, the result we get is that, the ring, seeking to return to Sauron, brought whomever wore it into the wraith world so that Sauron's servents, looking for it, could find it more easily, but that, one wearing the ring was not necessarily in the wraith world, and that, if they mastered the ring, they could enter and leave it freely.

Did that make sense to anyone? (it was kind of stream of contiousness, I know...) Any other thoughts on this peculiar aspect of the Ring?

Christiana · 05-26-2002, 09:09 PM

Er.. Saraun wuz already bordering on the wraith world?

Faramir · 05-26-2002, 09:23 PM

Um, you took anything anyone else could say in the first post!

But I agree with everything you said.

You made more logic than I could.

Mirahzi · 05-26-2002, 09:27 PM

Perhaps the ring had different effects on people of different character.. Maybe evil or corrupted creatures, such as Sauron and Gollum were not made invisible, but good-hearted fellows, such as the three ring-bearers were. But, to prove that theory we would need to know whether or not Gollum's visibility was affected by the ring.

Christiana · 05-26-2002, 09:30 PM

It was.

Mirahzi · 05-26-2002, 09:34 PM

Wow, that was blunt

Christiana · 05-26-2002, 09:40 PM

Mirahzi · 05-26-2002, 10:00 PM

Wait... by saying

Quote:

It was.

You're talking about Gollum being able to become invisible.. right? Just trying to reaffirm that, since I've never read about that and a 'duh' really isn't all that convincing.

BeardofPants · 05-26-2002, 10:00 PM

Strange that it had no effect upon Tom Bombadil, though.

Mirahzi · 05-26-2002, 10:03 PM

Well, I don't think we can really include Bombadil in any theory, since he's a bit of a question mark...

***Khamûl*** · 05-26-2002, 10:12 PM

I think that Sauron was the only one who could put on the Ring and not become invisible. (Except Bombadil, and the Ring didn't have any effect on him at all) Sauron was the only one who had the power to make the Ring do his bidding. I agree with the thoughts about the Ring sending you into the wraith world so that the servants of Sauron could find you more easily. Oh, and yes, Gollum's visibility was affected. That's how he caught small orcs in the Hobbit: by becoming invisible and sneaking up on them.

Mirahzi · 05-26-2002, 10:30 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Khamul.. I suppose that makes my explanation worthless.

***Khamûl*** · 05-26-2002, 10:44 PM

Not at all. That was your explanation and you're entitled to it. It was an interesting thought, though.

I had to think about it a little bit before I recalled that line from the Hobbit about Gollum killing small orcs while he was invisible.

Tar-Elendil · 05-27-2002, 01:44 AM

Tom doesnt turn invisible because he is Tulkas! NO NO IM JUST KIDDING!

i think sauron could stay visible because he: 1. had to power to do so, 2. forged it.
i think the whole sauron servant finding ring thing is a probability.
and mebbe maiar's just wouldnt be effected by the ring?

yes yes...TOM MUST BE A MAIAR?!

Mirahzi · 05-27-2002, 02:17 AM

Well, IIRC Gandalf is/was a Maiar and he thought he would be affected by the ring.. so Tom would reasonably have to be a much greater Maia or a being of higher status than a Maiar.

***Earniel*** · 05-27-2002, 11:19 AM

Maybe the different effect the ring had on Sauron can be explained by the fact that he was the one and sole Lord of the Ring *omnious music* Or maybe by the fact that he was body-less (or how do you say that?)

Menelvagor · 05-27-2002, 11:31 AM

Maybe you could use this theory to prove Tom was a Maia or Vala (of at least equal power to Sauron)?

Hm, but with Tom it wasn't so much that he had power over the ring, it was that the ring had no power over him...

Tar-Elendil · 05-27-2002, 11:48 AM

gandalf only talked about how th ring would affect him in his status of good/bad dude..get what im sayin?

i was just merely making a guess..but more i think about, more tom must be a maiar

and sauron did have a body
it was described as black and burning.
or..wait for it... tom must be a cleverly disquised Sauron !

no no..thats impossible

***Earniel*** · 05-27-2002, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
and sauron did have a body
it was described as black and burning.

Hadn't forgotten that, but he lost his first one didn't he?

Tar-Elendil · 05-27-2002, 03:02 PM

it was destroyed in the downfall of numenor and he wasnt "ever to take fair form again"
which leads me to ask a question...how ya think he got the ring from to numenor to middle-earth

his spirit couldnt have brought it..

05-26-2002, 08:56 PM	#1
Menelvagor Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: lurking on the edge of conversations Posts: 924	Invisibility I've been trying to ponder this out. Did the ring make Sauron invisible like all the other ring bearers? Probably not, seeing as he could control it, though he could probably have used the ring to make himself invisible if he wanted too. Also, it would be very unlikely that he was invisible during the fight with Isildur, because that would put the cutting off of the ring as pure chance, which seems unlikely. So, Sauron was not involuntarily invisible (that sounds odd) when he wore the ring, why were the other ringbearers? Either they didn't have enough power innately to begin with to force the ring to not make them invisible (which implys that, for some unknown reason, the ring automaticly made its bearer invisible unless commanded otherwise) or that the ring chose to make the bearer invisible. Or it is a combinartion of the two, the ring chose to make you invisible unless you had enough power of your own to command it otherwise. If this is so then my question is, why? The other aspect of it is, that turning invisible was just a side effect of entering the wraith world. You left the world of visible light and entered the shadowy evil one. This would of course aid the servents of the dark lord searching for the ring. It is less evident, though, early after the ring was lost, presumably because Sauron was searching less eagerly for it. So then, the result we get is that, the ring, seeking to return to Sauron, brought whomever wore it into the wraith world so that Sauron's servents, looking for it, could find it more easily, but that, one wearing the ring was not necessarily in the wraith world, and that, if they mastered the ring, they could enter and leave it freely. Did that make sense to anyone? (it was kind of stream of contiousness, I know...) Any other thoughts on this peculiar aspect of the Ring?

05-26-2002, 09:23 PM	#3
Faramir Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ithilien Posts: 353	Um, you took anything anyone else could say in the first post! But I agree with everything you said. You made more logic than I could. __________________ This is the Window of the Sunset, Henneth Annun, fairest of all the falls of Ithilien, land of many fountains."-Faramir, Chapter IV, The Two Towers ========================== FRODO LIVES!!! ========================== YODA IS DA MAN!!! ========================== I Love Jesus!

05-26-2002, 09:27 PM	#4
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Perhaps the ring had different effects on people of different character.. Maybe evil or corrupted creatures, such as Sauron and Gollum were not made invisible, but good-hearted fellows, such as the three ring-bearers were. But, to prove that theory we would need to know whether or not Gollum's visibility was affected by the ring. __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

05-26-2002, 09:34 PM	#6
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Wow, that was blunt __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

05-26-2002, 10:00 PM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Strange that it had no effect upon Tom Bombadil, though. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

05-26-2002, 09:09 PM	#2
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	Er.. Saraun wuz already bordering on the wraith world?

05-26-2002, 09:30 PM	#5
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	It was.

05-26-2002, 09:40 PM	#7
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	duh

05-26-2002, 10:03 PM	#10
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Well, I don't think we can really include Bombadil in any theory, since he's a bit of a question mark... __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

05-26-2002, 10:12 PM	#11
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	I think that Sauron was the only one who could put on the Ring and not become invisible. (Except Bombadil, and the Ring didn't have any effect on him at all) Sauron was the only one who had the power to make the Ring do his bidding. I agree with the thoughts about the Ring sending you into the wraith world so that the servants of Sauron could find you more easily. Oh, and yes, Gollum's visibility was affected. That's how he caught small orcs in the Hobbit: by becoming invisible and sneaking up on them. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

05-26-2002, 10:30 PM	#12
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Thanks for clearing that up Khamul.. I suppose that makes my explanation worthless. __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

05-26-2002, 10:44 PM	#13
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	Not at all. That was your explanation and you're entitled to it. It was an interesting thought, though. I had to think about it a little bit before I recalled that line from the Hobbit about Gollum killing small orcs while he was invisible. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

05-27-2002, 01:44 AM	#14
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	Tom doesnt turn invisible because he is Tulkas! NO NO IM JUST KIDDING! i think sauron could stay visible because he: 1. had to power to do so, 2. forged it. i think the whole sauron servant finding ring thing is a probability. and mebbe maiar's just wouldnt be effected by the ring? yes yes...TOM MUST BE A MAIAR?! __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-27-2002, 02:17 AM	#15
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Well, IIRC Gandalf is/was a Maiar and he thought he would be affected by the ring.. so Tom would reasonably have to be a much greater Maia or a being of higher status than a Maiar. __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

05-27-2002, 11:19 AM	#16
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Maybe the different effect the ring had on Sauron can be explained by the fact that he was the one and sole Lord of the Ring omnious music Or maybe by the fact that he was body-less (or how do you say that?) __________________ We are not things.

05-27-2002, 11:31 AM	#17
Menelvagor Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: lurking on the edge of conversations Posts: 924	Maybe you could use this theory to prove Tom was a Maia or Vala (of at least equal power to Sauron)? Hm, but with Tom it wasn't so much that he had power over the ring, it was that the ring had no power over him...

05-27-2002, 11:48 AM	#18
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	gandalf only talked about how th ring would affect him in his status of good/bad dude..get what im sayin? i was just merely making a guess..but more i think about, more tom must be a maiar and sauron did have a body it was described as black and burning. or..wait for it... tom must be a cleverly disquised Sauron ! no no..thats impossible __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-27-2002, 03:02 PM	#20
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	it was destroyed in the downfall of numenor and he wasnt "ever to take fair form again" which leads me to ask a question...how ya think he got the ring from to numenor to middle-earth his spirit couldnt have brought it.. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

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