Was the EVER a happy Middle Earth?

FrodoFriend · 01-13-2002, 05:51 PM

Just wondering . . . was there ever a time in ME where there was no enemy, no fighting, and no fading of beautiful things?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-13-2002, 06:10 PM

Yes. It was called the Long Peace. It lasted almost 200 years. It began with the defeat of the inmature Glaurung (FA 260) and ended with the Dagor Bragollach (FA 455). The enemy was there from the beginning though.

afro-elf · 01-13-2002, 08:09 PM

What about during the chaining of Melkor?

And the time right after the war of wrath?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-13-2002, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
What about during the chaining of Melkor?

And the time right after the war of wrath?

I don't think that you can count these. During the chaining of Melkor was when the elves were arriving in Eldamar. It was the Noontide of Valinor. So, I'm not sure how populous Middle-earth was.

As for the War of Wrath, there may have been peace for awhile after this battle, but much of Beleriand was destryed in its wake.

I think we must remember that Sauron too was always lurking in the shadows.

afro-elf · 01-13-2002, 08:53 PM

SHG

I'll concede the second point, but I believe the Avari where the most numberous of the Elven Kindred. I've read it (somewhere) but I can not quote the source.

And didn't Men and Dwarves awake during this time?

Even in your first post weren't there still dark things in the east?

PS
I hope you're feeling better.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-13-2002, 09:26 PM

Thank you afro-elf. I am getting there.

In the days of the Long Peace, there were still evil things in the world including Morgoth himself, but the Siege of Angband lasted for so long that I think it was probably the only time the world saw true peace after the return of the Elves. This is one of the reasons why the Bragollach was so disasterous. Almost all the Elves were content to leave things as they were. Fingolfin wished to attack, knowing Morgoth did not sit idle all this time, but he could not get the support.

As for the rest, Men did not awake until long after the Eldar returned to Middle-earth. I think something like a hundred years before Finrod met them. I can't be positive on that figure though.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 09:38 PM

Anyone recall a little thing called "The Fourth Age"?

After the defeat of Sauron, although there were small "[brush wars" that King Elessar had to put out, things were pretty sedate from his reighn onward.

Also, there were brief periods [okay, brief as considered through the life of an Elf] during the First, Second and third Ages when things were more than just relatively "peaceful". I guess it really just depended upon one's scope of vision. As far as the Shire goes, most of its existence was pretty darn "peaceful", even though quite evil occurrences were afott in the wider world.

Doriath was pretty "peaceful" within the girdle of Melian [did they ever wash it? *wink!], and Gondolin in its isolation experienced many years of "peace", regardless of outside events.

Again, I think it depended upon where the individual was at any particular time, and how limited was their knowledge of "outside" events.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-13-2002, 10:02 PM

I agree bropous. However, the Long Peace was probably the longest period of time that the whole world ever saw without conflict, especially from the greatest evils.

As fo the Fourth Age, it was probably down right boring which is why Tolkien ended the story there.

Melian's Girdle, heeheehee.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 10:24 PM

I seem to recall somewhere from the Master's writings that, and I paraphrase here:

"Times of peace are not written about in depth, while times of evil are written about in great detail."

That has got to be the broadest "paraphrase," admittedly, I have ever assembled, but it does translate the essential idea.

Michael Martinez · 01-14-2002, 01:04 AM

There were many peaceful, happy periods. The Chaining of Melkor represented a peacful, happy period for the Eldar of Aman, and the Sindar enjoyed two happy, peaceful ages during that time.

The Second Age didn't begin to turn ugly until around the year 500 or 600, and even then the Eldar and their allies enjoyed a relatively long and stable period of peace until the War of the Elves and Sauron.

The Third Age started out relatively peaceful, too. It was several centuries before Gondor was attacked again.

And there were later periods of peace (such as the Watchful Peace, which lasted from 2063 to 2460).

Anyone who feels my scholarship is questionable value in these matters is of course welcome to crack open a book by J.R.R. Tolkien and check my facts against the primary source. I recommend The Lord of the Rings, specifically The Return of the King. There is an appendix there called "The Tale of Years" which provides reams of useful information that any scholar should certainly be able to at least stumble across.

FrodoFriend · 01-14-2002, 01:33 AM

Hmm . . . the Long Peace doesn't count because Melkor was still there, even though he wasn't doing anything. The Fourth Age doesn't count because it involves the departure of the Elves and disappearance of the others Peoples of ME except for Men. I forgot about the Chaining of Melkor, but that does sound about right, except the happiness/peace was mostly in Valinor since ME was mostly uninhabited. Thanks for all the input . . . it always bothered me that Melkor managed to mess up the world for ages and ages to come . . . grrrrr, the jerk!

FrodoFriend · 01-14-2002, 01:35 AM

And I just realized the title of this thread says "the" instead of "there" like it should. Melkor's work again!

ragamuffin92 · 01-14-2002, 01:41 AM

FrodoFriend--I sort of agree with your next-to-last post (I think); actually, the only time I can think of there being real peace on Middle Earth was just after the Elves were created, when they were wandering around in the dark, saying things like, "Ooooh, look at that star!! And look at that one--and that one over there!! oooh, and"--okay, I've made my point.
Not long after that, it was all downhill.

Michael Martinez · 01-14-2002, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ragamuffin92
FrodoFriend--I sort of agree with your next-to-last post (I think); actually, the only time I can think of there being real peace on Middle Earth was just after the Elves were created, when they were wandering around in the dark, saying things like, "Ooooh, look at that star!! And look at that one--and that one over there!! oooh, and"--okay, I've made my point.
Not long after that, it was all downhill.

You're forgetting that the Valar had already fought one war with Melkor, and that he had perverted all their designs, even destroyed the Two Lamps.

If you're going to be so stringent in defining peaceful, happy times in Middle-earth, then you must conclude there were none, because Melkor's evil arose in the very beginning of Arda.

FrodoFriend · 01-14-2002, 01:50 AM

Yeah, that was sort of my point . . .

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-14-2002, 10:43 AM

Wasn't it shortly after the Elves awoke that Morgoth bred Orcs?

bropous · 01-14-2002, 12:08 PM

Yuppers, Sister, and what a strange coincidence it was....

FrodoFriend, again, I think "peace" could be found in all ages of Middle-Earth, depending on one's focus. There had to be areas in which peace and happiness did reign, no matter what was occurring in other areas.

FrodoFriend · 01-14-2002, 09:05 PM

Fair enough, and I guess that answers my question. It's not like there's ever TOTAL peace in this world either.

ragamuffin92 · 01-14-2002, 09:15 PM

I guess if the peace in the Blessed Realm was shattered right under the noses of the Valar, what chance did Middle Earth have? Even when they had years of prolonged peace, it was only because someone somewhere was keeping the powers of evil at bay. Ineveitably, it seemed, Morgoth, and later on, Sauron would always grow in strength and unleash their forces of destruction in some way.

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 04:09 PM

"If it wasn't for war you wouldn't know what peace was" - Col Flagg.

There were many periods of peace throughout the various stories, some of it was local (hobbits enjoyed long periods of uninterrupted peace within the Shire). Some of it more widespread. As Mr. Martinez has said, look at the appendices and you will see that warfare, although frequent and widespread, was not a full-time occuptation.

As far as fading goes. Once the Sun rose ME was always decaying, despite the best efforts by the Elves and those silly rings of theirs.

01-13-2002, 05:51 PM	#1
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Was the EVER a happy Middle Earth? Just wondering . . . was there ever a time in ME where there was no enemy, no fighting, and no fading of beautiful things? __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-13-2002, 06:10 PM	#2
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Yes. It was called the Long Peace. It lasted almost 200 years. It began with the defeat of the inmature Glaurung (FA 260) and ended with the Dagor Bragollach (FA 455). The enemy was there from the beginning though. Last edited by Sister Golden Hair : 01-13-2002 at 06:11 PM.

01-13-2002, 08:09 PM	#3
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	What about during the chaining of Melkor? And the time right after the war of wrath? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-13-2002, 08:53 PM	#5
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	SHG I'll concede the second point, but I believe the Avari where the most numberous of the Elven Kindred. I've read it (somewhere) but I can not quote the source. And didn't Men and Dwarves awake during this time? Even in your first post weren't there still dark things in the east? PS I hope you're feeling better. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-13-2002, 09:38 PM	#7
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Anyone recall a little thing called "The Fourth Age"? After the defeat of Sauron, although there were small "[brush wars" that King Elessar had to put out, things were pretty sedate from his reighn onward. Also, there were brief periods [okay, brief as considered through the life of an Elf] during the First, Second and third Ages when things were more than just relatively "peaceful". I guess it really just depended upon one's scope of vision. As far as the Shire goes, most of its existence was pretty darn "peaceful", even though quite evil occurrences were afott in the wider world. Doriath was pretty "peaceful" within the girdle of Melian [did they ever wash it? *wink!], and Gondolin in its isolation experienced many years of "peace", regardless of outside events. Again, I think it depended upon where the individual was at any particular time, and how limited was their knowledge of "outside" events. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-13-2002, 09:26 PM	#6
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Thank you afro-elf. I am getting there. In the days of the Long Peace, there were still evil things in the world including Morgoth himself, but the Siege of Angband lasted for so long that I think it was probably the only time the world saw true peace after the return of the Elves. This is one of the reasons why the Bragollach was so disasterous. Almost all the Elves were content to leave things as they were. Fingolfin wished to attack, knowing Morgoth did not sit idle all this time, but he could not get the support. As for the rest, Men did not awake until long after the Eldar returned to Middle-earth. I think something like a hundred years before Finrod met them. I can't be positive on that figure though.

01-13-2002, 10:02 PM	#8
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	I agree bropous. However, the Long Peace was probably the longest period of time that the whole world ever saw without conflict, especially from the greatest evils. As fo the Fourth Age, it was probably down right boring which is why Tolkien ended the story there. Melian's Girdle, heeheehee.

01-13-2002, 10:24 PM	#9
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I seem to recall somewhere from the Master's writings that, and I paraphrase here: "Times of peace are not written about in depth, while times of evil are written about in great detail." That has got to be the broadest "paraphrase," admittedly, I have ever assembled, but it does translate the essential idea. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-14-2002, 01:04 AM	#10
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	There were many peaceful, happy periods. The Chaining of Melkor represented a peacful, happy period for the Eldar of Aman, and the Sindar enjoyed two happy, peaceful ages during that time. The Second Age didn't begin to turn ugly until around the year 500 or 600, and even then the Eldar and their allies enjoyed a relatively long and stable period of peace until the War of the Elves and Sauron. The Third Age started out relatively peaceful, too. It was several centuries before Gondor was attacked again. And there were later periods of peace (such as the Watchful Peace, which lasted from 2063 to 2460). Anyone who feels my scholarship is questionable value in these matters is of course welcome to crack open a book by J.R.R. Tolkien and check my facts against the primary source. I recommend The Lord of the Rings, specifically The Return of the King. There is an appendix there called "The Tale of Years" which provides reams of useful information that any scholar should certainly be able to at least stumble across. __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

01-14-2002, 01:33 AM	#11
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Hmm . . . the Long Peace doesn't count because Melkor was still there, even though he wasn't doing anything. The Fourth Age doesn't count because it involves the departure of the Elves and disappearance of the others Peoples of ME except for Men. I forgot about the Chaining of Melkor, but that does sound about right, except the happiness/peace was mostly in Valinor since ME was mostly uninhabited. Thanks for all the input . . . it always bothered me that Melkor managed to mess up the world for ages and ages to come . . . grrrrr, the jerk! __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-14-2002, 01:35 AM	#12
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	And I just realized the title of this thread says "the" instead of "there" like it should. Melkor's work again! __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-14-2002, 01:41 AM	#13
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	FrodoFriend--I sort of agree with your next-to-last post (I think); actually, the only time I can think of there being real peace on Middle Earth was just after the Elves were created, when they were wandering around in the dark, saying things like, "Ooooh, look at that star!! And look at that one--and that one over there!! oooh, and"--okay, I've made my point. Not long after that, it was all downhill.

01-14-2002, 01:50 AM	#15
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Yeah, that was sort of my point . . . __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-14-2002, 10:43 AM	#16
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Wasn't it shortly after the Elves awoke that Morgoth bred Orcs?

01-14-2002, 12:08 PM	#17
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Yuppers, Sister, and what a strange coincidence it was.... FrodoFriend, again, I think "peace" could be found in all ages of Middle-Earth, depending on one's focus. There had to be areas in which peace and happiness did reign, no matter what was occurring in other areas. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-14-2002, 09:05 PM	#18
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Fair enough, and I guess that answers my question. It's not like there's ever TOTAL peace in this world either. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-14-2002, 09:15 PM	#19
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	I guess if the peace in the Blessed Realm was shattered right under the noses of the Valar, what chance did Middle Earth have? Even when they had years of prolonged peace, it was only because someone somewhere was keeping the powers of evil at bay. Ineveitably, it seemed, Morgoth, and later on, Sauron would always grow in strength and unleash their forces of destruction in some way. __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

01-17-2002, 04:09 PM	#20
Kevin McIntyre Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bree Posts: 148	"If it wasn't for war you wouldn't know what peace was" - Col Flagg. There were many periods of peace throughout the various stories, some of it was local (hobbits enjoyed long periods of uninterrupted peace within the Shire). Some of it more widespread. As Mr. Martinez has said, look at the appendices and you will see that warfare, although frequent and widespread, was not a full-time occuptation. As far as fading goes. Once the Sun rose ME was always decaying, despite the best efforts by the Elves and those silly rings of theirs.

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