Celebrimbor or Gil-galad as high king!!!!!

[The Telcontarion]

I always imagined that as noble as Celebrimbor was, just as he was held in high regard in nograthond, even when his father and uncle were chased out, so too Celebrimbor would have been held in high esteem in the second age, even by Erienion himself. I had always fancied Erienion Gil-galad, being as wise as he was, would give over the kingship of the eldar to Celebrimbor to set things aright. So that the eldest house of Finwe, would no longer be the dispossessed and Gil-gald would take his place as the herald of his one true liegelord; ultimately make the words and deeds of Morgoth become untruth and fruitless.

Only I think as great and wise as Celebrimbor himself was, he probably would refuse unfortunately, for he would not wish to bring the curse of Feanor down upon the Noldor once again.

Comments.

[jammi567]

can you make that a bit clearer please.

[Arien the Maia]

did he not already bring the curse of Feanor upon them by creating rings of power to begin with?

even so, I vote for Celebrimbor...just as skillful as his hot grandpa!

[The Telcontarion]

I don't think the making of the ring had anything to do with the curse. Remember Celebrimbor rebuked his father and uncle at Nagrothond, so he was no longer under it from that time. Also LOTR stated that even though he harkened to Sauron in his fair seeming, he remained true and was the first to hear the words of Sauron when he first uttered them (one ring to find them...) and saw the danger and warned the Eldar.

But I fear being wise (or over causious) I do not believe he would risk rousing it again by taking up the kingship in the 2nd age.

I personally believe, that just as with king Arvedui, in LOTR it stated that if he was granted the kingship of gondor much evil would have been averted. If the kingship of the Eldar were to have passed to Celebrimbor, so too I believe much of the evil at that time would have been averted; even though he would have harkened to Sauron sooner and Gil-galad would not have had the oppurtunity to reject him first.

I always fancied that though Gil-galad was king, in the presence of Celebrimbor he always differed; if only behind close doors.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I don't think the making of the ring had anything to do with the curse. Remeber Celebrimbor rebuked his father and uncle at Nagrothond, so he was no longer under it from that time. Also LOTR stated that even though he harkened to Sauron in his fair seeming, he remained true and was the first to hear the words of Sauron when he first uttered them (one ring to find them...) and saw the danger and warned the Eldar.

But I fear being wise (or over causious) I do not believe he would risk rousing it again by taking up the kingship in the 2nd age.

I personally believe, that just as with king Arvedui, in LOTR it stated that if he was granted the kingship of gondor much evil would have been averted. If the kingship of the Eldar were to have passed to Celebrimbor, so too I believe much of the evil at that time would have been averted; even though he would have harkened to Sauron sooner and Gil-galad would not have had the oppurtunity to reject him first.

I always fancied that though Gil-galad was king, in the presence of Celebrimbor he always differed; if only behind close doors.

true...but...IMO the line of Feanor is where the true king comes from. Maedhros only abducated out of curtousy. I still think he should have been king after Feanor! LONG LIVE THE KING OF FIRE!

[The Telcontarion]

Amen my sister!!

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

did he not already bring the curse of Feanor upon them by creating rings of power to begin with?

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Landroval

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

True, but Celebrimbor or Gil-galad.

[jammi567]

Gil-galad because he's more active, whilst Celebrimbor only made some rings for god sake.

[The Telcontarion]

Finally, I can concentrate on happier things.

Celebrimbor fo king!!!!

Your thoughts.

One on one who do you think would win, Cel or Gil. Slite off topic so don't run to much away from the main thread.

I personally think Cel would.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Your thoughts.

One on one who do you think would win, Cel or Gil. Slite off topic so don't run to much away from the main thread.

I personally think Cel would.

Slite off topic, but who's your pick?

[Valtir]

Gil-Galad all the way. The House of Fingolfin acquited itself well despite the Doom of the Noldor, and Gil is no exception.

Celebrimbor, on the other hand, shares much of the flaws of the House of Feanor, and his cozying up to Annatar is but the shining example.

In many ways, Celebrimbor is the patsy of the entire second and third ages, allowing the Rings to be crafted and used to pervert much of Middle Earth.

[jammi567]

he wasn't being a 'patsy'. he was being a reble, just like grandad was.

[Valtir]

Originally Posted by jammi567

he wasn't being a 'patsy'. he was being a reble, just like grandad was.

Melkor tweaked Feanor (and others) enough to cause a massive rift between the Noldor and the Valar. Sauron fooled Celembrimbor into creating the rings, leading to ages of strife and struggle. While it cannot be said Celembrimbor intentionally did evil, his actions certainly led to it. He got played, due to his lust for power and glory.

Gil-Galad on the other hand had no such failings.

[jammi567]

exept for waiting for half the third age to tell the numenorians what the hell they were fighting for. and thus allowing 9 of their lords to become nazgul.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by jammi567

exept for waiting for half the third age to tell the numenorians what the hell they were fighting for. and thus allowing 9 of their lords to become nazgul.

all the Nazgul weren't Numenorians. only 3 were. Khamul was an Easterling

[The Telcontarion]

Celebrimbor is the one true king, period.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Celebrimbor was senior to Erenion Gil Galad under any of the patterns of kingship descent I am familiar with, from primogenitor to the brother to brother to nephew type of the Anlgo Saxons, with Salic Law or non Salic law. It is a heavy question as to why he was not High King after the end of the the War of the Great Jewels and the pardon of the Noldor. I suspect it is tied up with why he led many Noldor into a separate enclave in Eregion after the war. I believe it is the remaining racial and political animosity between the Feanorians and the Sindar most imporantly, but also the with the Laequendi and the other Noldor. The preponderating majority of the population of the remaining and very blended Belriand kingdom, Lindon, were Sindar and Laequnendi, and they would not acept a Feanorian king. The aminosity between the Feanorians and them, and the other Noldor, led to the few remaining Feanorians packing up and leaving for new lands, but the centeo of Eldarian power remained with the vastly larger Beleriandic population of Lindon.
The best consistant rule I could discern with for the "High Kingship" is which prince clearly wielded the greatest military power, and Gil Galad had many times that of Celebrimbor. The 'High Kingship" in Middle Earth had become first and formost a a military power postion, and it was Gil Galad who held that power, as it had previously been Fingolfin, than Fingon, then Turgon.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

I vote for Gil-Galad.. I sympathise more with him than with Celebrimbor. But maybe that has to do with the fact that I absolutely don't like the House of Fëanor and my big love for the Valar. :')