How old is Legolas?

[Gordis]

[EDIT: This thread has been split of from the thread What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR - Eärniel]

Not in the book. He was youthful...before JRR decided that he'd rewrite all the elves as dull.

We know for certain that Legolas was at least 500 years old.
One can be "youthful"... and one can be "retarded"

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

We know for certain that Legolas was at least 500 years old.

Oh, we do? What page is that on?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

In the chapter: The King of the Golden Hall, Legolas says:

'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'

He also says in the chapter: The Road to Isengard:

'These are the strangest trees that ever I saw,' he said; 'and I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age. I wish that there were leisure now to walk among them: they have voices, and in time I might come to understand their thought.'

His exact age is unknown, but he is clearly several centuries old at a minimum. This isn't extra material from the oft-scorned History of Middle Earth or some vague un-mailed note from Letters. It's from The Lord of the Rings itself.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

In the chapter: The King of the Golden Hall, Legolas says:


He also says in the chapter: The Road to Isengard:


His exact age is unknown, but he is clearly several centuries old at a minimum. This isn't extra material from the oft-scorned History of Middle Earth or some vague un-mailed note from Letters. It's from The Lord of the Rings itself.

I would say that both these quotes tell against your theory. Legolas does not speak the language of the Rohirrim...he doesn't even recognise it. He might as easily say "but a little while does it seem to me " but he says "us", a direct response to the statement Aragorn makes above, "Many long lives of men is it since the golden hall was built." Elves are longer lived than men. Well, true enough. The only other 'us" than "us elves" is "you and me, Aragorn", and that's not what he's saying.

He likewise can't hear the language of the wood, although he figured he might learn it, and he's a woodland elf, not one of Cirdan's crew. He's old, certainly older than the other members of the fellowship (save Gandalf), but 500 years...I doubt it. What would he have been doing for 500 years, that he wouldn't even have the notion of "the Glittering Caves of Aglarond", can't remember there are such a thing as Ents, and knows no languages? World of Warcraft? I mean, if I had a friend in Arizona who came to me babbling about a really BIG hole in the ground, I might guess the Grand Canyon, wouldn't you?

Additionally, your theory means that the Fellowship, the critical part of rescuing the entire world, which took off from Rivendel under the personal supervision of Elrond and Gandalf, chose ONE representative of elf-kind, Thurandil's kinda dim boy, Ol' Leggy.

Jeepers. With friends like this, who needs Sauron?

Nope. He's just on the young side, for an elf. At the time this was written, you didn't need kryptonite to kill them, that came later.

[Earniel]

But Sis, you didn't have internet, TV or telephone in Middle-earth. You can't expect inhabitants to know what's out there beyond the edge of their land. Especially not Elves who probably never left their forest if they didn't need to and barely had interest in the short lives of men. And I considerably doubt the Rohirrim flaunted any knowledge about caves they used as refuge.

[Curufin]

My personal opinion on the matter is that Legolas is a 'war baby' - born not long after Thranduil returned from the Battle of the Last Alliance and took up the Kingship of Greenwood...but that's just speculation.

For the record, I agree with everything DPR and Eärniel said.

Sis, how old do you think he is?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I would say that both these quotes tell against your theory.

Only if you twist them a whole lot.

I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.

Tell us how a young person could have achieved this.

So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children.

And how could a young person call a 139 year old Dwarf and an 87 year old man children without them taking offense or even making any comment whatsoever?

Because he's not young. He's very old. Young, perhaps, in Elf terms, but old nevertheless.

As for choosing him for the Fellowship, he seems to have been quite qualified for the mission. He was meant for it.

[Jon S.]

I think that everyone's right. Legolas is old when measured in human years but young in Elven terms. The latter, it seems to me, may help explain his relative ignorance - he just wasn't in a rush to complete junior high, so to speak. We humans cram so much learning and experiencing into such a short time frame precisely because we suffer from what Kierkegaard deemed the sickness unto death. Elves didn't have the Grim Reaper looking over their shoulders so it would not surprise me that some would choose to spend decades watching acorns grow into oaks without hurrying to learn languages and geography and the like.

Though on the other hand, kings' sons were always, in human cultures at least, given proper educations. Perhaps it was different for Elven princes.

P.S. This gives me hope, contemplating now how even the might oak trees were once just little nuts like us.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But Sis, you didn't have internet, TV or telephone in Middle-earth. You can't expect inhabitants to know what's out there beyond the edge of their land. Especially not Elves who probably never left their forest if they didn't need to and barely had interest in the short lives of men. And I considerably doubt the Rohirrim flaunted any knowledge about caves they used as refuge.

The caves had a famous name, that's from Gandalf. And Legolas wasn't some random woodelf, he was the King's son. Eldarin, according to Tolkien. They had an active trade with men and dwarves. Mirkwood was in the first line against the Necromancer...does it make any sense to you the King's son isn't getting the best education he can? He just doesn't have the life experience to put it all together. He's young.

Originally Posted by Curufin

My personal opinion on the matter is that Legolas is a 'war baby' - born not long after Thranduil returned from the Battle of the Last Alliance and took up the Kingship of Greenwood...but that's just speculation.

For the record, I agree with everything DPR and Eärniel said.

Sis, how old do you think he is?

Older than anyone in the Fellowship except Gandalf, but not old in elf terms. 200, maybe 300, or thereabouts.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Only if you twist them a whole lot.


Tell us how a young person could have achieved this.


And how could a young person call a 139 year old Dwarf and an 87 year old man children without them taking offense or even making any comment whatsoever?

When I travel with people even 10 years younger, sometimes I feel old. But people who are sure of themselves (like Aragorn) don't bother to correct their elders on stuff like that. He was raised with elves...he knows how they are.

Because he's not young. He's very old. Young, perhaps, in Elf terms, but old nevertheless.

THAT is the point I'm making. It's related to Bilbo and his poetry in Rivendell. "To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different. Or to shepherds." Eleves are notoriously self-centered, that would have come as no surprise.

As for choosing him for the Fellowship, he seems to have been quite qualified for the mission. He was meant for it.

Yes, I agree. He was meant for it. So, why? Because he was well-educated, but from a less snippy branch of the elves, and one of the few elves young enough to actually enjoy and grow from the experience. He and Gimli were from the same generation, if there was any hope that representatives of these races would get along, it had to be young ones. The old ones were too sunk in their prejudice. He was the prince. He's not one of Elrond's crew, although they had plenty of them to choose from. He's the new hope.

[Curufin]

Elves didn't have the Grim Reaper looking over their shoulders

Well...just to be a canon nazi...

'Thus far, I perceive that the great difference between Elves and Men is the speed of the end. In this only. For if you deem that for the Quendi there is no death ineluctable, you err...But the end will come. That we know. And then we must die; we must perish utterly, it seems, for we belong in Arda (in hröa and fëa). And beyond that what?...Our hunter is slow footed, but he never loses the trail. Beyond the day when he shall blow the mort, we have no certainty, no knowledge. And no one speaks to us of hope.' ~Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

But as for the content of your post, I agree completely.

[Curufin]

Sis

Older than anyone in the Fellowship except Gandalf, but not old in elf terms. 200, maybe 300, or thereabouts.

Ok, but how do you square that with (and I won't quote from HoME or anything just for you, but from LotR )

I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.

Oak trees live on average between 200-400 years, and can live as long as 800.

Personally, I think Legolas is young for an Elf too - I put him at somewhere around 2500-3000 Y.S.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Oak trees live on average between 200-400 years, and can live as long as 800.

I plant 50 trees, as a scout project. They grow to ruinous old age. I have seen 50 trees grow to ruinous old age.

The man lived in the forest. You don't suppose he saw trees one at a time, do you?

Personally, I think Legolas is young for an Elf too - I put him at somewhere around 2500-3000 Y.S.

But internal to that text, Elrond doesn't have to be much over 3050.

[Jon S.]

Legolas was certainly chosen for both political and skill-based reasons. And if I may be so bold, having a level personality is as much a skill-based attribute as any other attribute.

Any other Beatles fans here? I respect Ringo's drumming skills quite highly but the fact is his biggest contribution to the Beatles' success may well have been his level, playful personality which was the perfect foil to John's gloominess, Paul's controlling, and George's introvertedness.

I believe that not only did Legolas's personality play a similar role with the 9, he was selected in part specifically for that reason. So the next time someone - even the Professor himself - opines that of 9, Legolas achieved the least, nod your head if you will but think of Ringo.

Last night, on a whim, I went back and re-watched the first of the two TTT EE discs. Very interesting, how Aragorn responded to Eomer:

"I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn. This is Gimli, son of Gloin, and Legolas of the Woodland Realm."

Why that, not the seemingly appropriate parallel structure of "Legolas, son of Thranduil?"

[Curufin]

But internal to that text, Elrond doesn't have to be much over 3050

*hiss*

*spit*

*tries really hard*

*can't do it*

Elrond, the son of Elwing and Eärendil, was born in F.A. 525, making him approximately 6523 years (Y.S.) old at the end of the T.A.

[Curufin]

Oh, and Sis, staying with LotR only, how can Elrond only be 3050 or so when his twin brother died in S.A. 442? And that's in the Appendix.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Oh, and Sis, staying with LotR only, how can Elrond only be 3050 or so when his twin brother died in S.A. 442? And that's in the Appendix.

Ooh, point scored! Nicely done, Curu.

I stand corrected. You've got me up to...4850 :P

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Elvezzz have time masheenz!

[Curufin]

Personally, I like Gordis's idea that taking Leggy was a political agreement with Thranduil...after all, he did allow them to torture Gollum in his woods...hmm...the M-E equivalent of rendition flights?

[Jon S.]

What if taking "Leggy" (nice - I like that ) was actually to punish Thranduil for being such a lousy jailer? (And let's face it, he did suck at it. First he lets Bilbo and the Dwarves high-tail it ... next it's Gollum! )

[Gordis]

Ohh, sisterandcousinandaunt, first you claim that Frodo was 20 at the Long-Expected party, then that Legolas was 200-300, now that Elrond was 3050... What next?
There are facts, you know, that you can't ignore. Nice tries to wriggle out, but nor convincing at all. No way, preciouss…

Legolas: I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.

The oaks may live on average between 200-400 years, but some trees are far older. Here is the list of some of them:

Granit oak, an oak in Granit village near Stara Zagora in Bulgaria; one of the oldest trees in Europe, estimated to be about 1,650 years old.
Bartek, an oak growing in Zagnańsk in Swietokrzyskie Mountains; the most famous tree in Poland, said to be about 1,200 years old, but after research more accurately about 650 years.
The Queen Elizabeth Oak in the grounds of the Royal Palace of Hatfield in Hertfordshire is said to be the location where Elizabeth I of England was told she was queen in 1558.
Kongeegen (the King Oak), an ancient Pedunculate oak in Jægerspris Nordskov, Sjælland, Denmark; estimated to be over 1,200 years old, the oldest tree in Denmark.
Major Oak, an ancient Pedunculate oak in Sherwood Forest, Nottinghamshire, England, the most famous and most visited tree of Great Britain. About 800 years old.
Ivenack Oak, a huge and ancient Pedunculate oak in Ivenack, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Germany, thought to be about 800 years old. The largest oak in Germany and (in wood volume) probably in Europe.
Stelmužė Oak, a Pedunculate oak in Stelmužė, Zarasai district, Lithuania; it is thought to be around 1,500 years old. The oldest tree in Lithuania and the Baltic States.

I think Curufin is right, most likely Legolas was born after the War of the Last Alliance, after Orofer died in battle and Thranduil withdrew to the north of the forest. But I doubt he was born after the Shadow of Mirkwood has become a real threat. Elves don’t reproduce in troubled times. Thus Legolas’s age would be between 3000 and 2000 years.

He is not poorly educated: he is a member of a secluded community. Most likely he is not the only son of Thranduil, and not his heir - that's why he was sent as messenger to Rivendell and proceeded further on a dangerous mission.
I think it was Thranduil who insisted on his inclusion into the Fellowship (or in everything the Wise planned to do with the Ring). Legolas was an observer appointed by Rivendell’s allies.
Look at it from Thranduil's POV. First Aragorn brought Gollum to his realm. Then Gandalf came and questioned Gollum. Then they left Gollum to Thranduil and asked to guard him. Meanwhile a nazgul came (trice) to Erebor asking for the ring, a little trinket worth the three Dwarven Rings + the realm of Moria - you do the math. Then orcs attacked and freed Gollum. Thranduil had all reasons to suspect that something dangerous was taking place: the Wise concoting something. He didn't want to be left out AGAIN.