what about the vala?

[Tulkas]

i dont understand why they didnt just go right after morgoth after he got the silmarils and destroy him, HELL i dont know why they even let him out of prison in the first place. if you have answers please explain.

[jammi567]

To why they let him out of prision, that was because Manwe, not being evil himself, believed Morgoth truely had repented. But he had long gone down the path for not being able to repent. To yor first point, they didn't do anything because otherwise, they'd be messing with the plans of Eru, the One. Also because they didn't want another war with him, and distroy the world anymore then it already was.

[The last sane person]

Eru had some farked up plans then mate. Let all get buggered to a dismal wreck then watch as it all slowly sinks down hill, then later scrap it all and damn people to doom and despair?

Real shite for planning if ya ask me, I'd hate to work for that bugger.

[brownjenkins]

There seems to be a strong underpinning of fate in the evolution of Arda, so one could argue that Eru simply planned it that way.

Also, remember that the Valar were more inhabitants of Arda than caretakers. They did some caretaking, but it never seemed to be their prime objective, so to speak. More often, they just did their own thing, much like the Norse and Greek gods of those respective mythologys. They were not christian-esk angels whose sole purpose was guiding and protecting the children of Eru.

In many ways, I think that most of the Valar simply didn't want to deal with "the problem that was Melkor" until they were practically forced to take action.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That's funny, cause Tolkien repeatedly calls the Maiar Angels, and the Valar Archangels...

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Eru had some farked up plans then mate. Let all get buggered to a dismal wreck then watch as it all slowly sinks down hill, then later scrap it all and damn people to doom and despair?

Real shite for planning if ya ask me, I'd hate to work for that bugger.

Ohhhh, please. Did you even read the 'Ainulindale'. Eru thought of the Valar, and then they sang songs that created the world, and the history of it. So you're telling me that that he didn't think and plan how Arda was going to be from the start? He'd be a pretty bad God in that case, wouldn't he.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

That's funny, cause Tolkien repeatedly calls the Maiar Angels, and the Valar Archangels...

His characterization of them changed greatly over the history of his writing. In Lost Tales, they were very much fallible Norse of Greek demigods. When reworking the Silmarillion, he tried to shift them towards a more angelic status, but without completely changing the storyline, he was stuck with certain aspects that he had to try to justify. Mainly, the Valar's inaction as far as Melkor and the majority of Arda was concerned.

They idea of the kind of non-interference directive you see by the time of LoTR worked out pretty well, but in the first age it is hard to reconcile the idea that 1) they claimed to not want to confront Melkor for fears of destruction to parts of Arda and 2) in the end, that's what they ended up doing anyway, destroying a large section of Arda.

[jammi567]

So are you saying that they had other, unexplained reasons for not wanting to confront Melkor earlier. Unless it was planned by the three songs they sang (see my last post).

[Tulkas]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Ohhhh, please. Did you even read the 'Ainulindale'. Eru thought of the Valar, and then they sang songs that created the world, and the history of it. So you're telling me that that he didn't think and plan how Arda was going to be from the start? He'd be a pretty bad God in that case, wouldn't he.

i dont think Eru planned for melkor to turn evil though and do the horrific things he did. Therefor the Vala and the Maiar should of gone after him to correct the error and Eru's plan.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jammi567

So are you saying that they had other, unexplained reasons for not wanting to confront Melkor earlier. Unless it was planned by the three songs they sang (see my last post).

Lost Tales covers Tolkien's original work on middle earth, written before the hobbit, lotr, and later drastically reworked as the silmarillion. These early valar were more like the early norse and greek gods, beings motivated mostly by their own self-interest, as opposed to beings that spent a lot of time guiding middle earth. They were more players involved within the history of middle earth, as opposed to guardians of Eru's plan.

Basically, they didn't confront him earlier because he was out of sight and out of mind, and they didn't really see it as their responsibility to put all the effort into taking him down.

As far as fate goes. It's a matter of interpretation. But when I read the following part of Ainulindale, it seems pretty clear to me the Melkor's part was very much intended by Eru:

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: ‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Iluvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.

But when they were come into the Void, Iluvatar said to them: ‘Behold your Music!’ And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Iluvatar said again: ‘Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.’

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Tulkas

i dont think Eru planned for melkor to turn evil though and do the horrific things he did. Therefor the Vala and the Maiar should of gone after him to correct the error and Eru's plan.

I like to think (unless it's stated in conon somewhere) that he gave Each of the Valar a different asspect of his mind, but to Melkor/Morgoth, he gave a lttle bit of everything. This made him prideful, and set in motion the events right upto the end of the third age (by which time, both Morgoth and Sauron had been banashed).

[brownjenkins]

I agree. He created a being that was too much like himself, and wanted to create for himself just as his "father" did.

[Leviathan]

Lets not forget what a formidable foe Melkor posed setting on his throne in the depths Thangordrim. The Valar finally had to cracked open Beleraind just to get him out.
It was the Noldor who named Morgoth their enemy, to the Valar he exhibited something much different being one of their own. Only Tulkas "the Muscle of of Westerness" could take him down. Surely for the most part the Valar were just happy to be rid of him, as he was far far away.
It does seem that they would take more interest in the Children of Iluvatar, after anticipating their arrival for so long. But the Valar were not shepards, more like elemental forces, the substance of Ea was theirs and of them but not the children. Each Valar had their own realm of governing, only a few (namely Mandos and Lorien) had any domain over men and elves, even then it was the realm of dreams and afterlife.

Imagine the Valar as a group of 7 year olds building with legos and that brat Melkor keeps kicking them over. The kids get fed up and go outside to build sand castles. Meanwhile back inside Melkor starts picking on the toddlers that just got dropped off at the day care. Is it the other kids job to stop him? Where is the babysitter?
"Iluvatar! Melkor's being bad again!"
hehehe

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Leviathan

Lets not forget what a formidable foe Melkor posed setting on his throne in the depths Thangordrim. The Valar finally had to cracked open Beleraind just to get him out.

It's the depths of Angband. Thangorodrim was the mountain protecting the entrence. And the didn't distroy the lands delibertly. It was because of all the fighting these giant beings did over a long period of time.

It was the Noldor who named Sauron their enemy, to the Valar he exhibited something much different being one of their own. Only Tulkas "the Muscle of of Westerness" could take him down. Surely for the most part the Valar were just happy to be rid of him, as he was far far away.

The Noldor named Morgoth the ememy, and Sauron was a lutnant/general to him. And they didn't interfear because they wanted togive the Nldor a chance to repent for the rebellion and the kinslaying. At the last possible moment, they came to the rescue, because of what i say below.

It does seem that they would take more interest in the Children of Iluvatar, after anticipating their arrival for so long. But the Valar were not shepards, more like elemental forces, the substance of Ea was theirs and of them but not the children. Each Valar had their own realm of governing, only a few (namely Mandos and Lorien) had any domain over men and elves, even then it was the realm of dreams and afterlife.

They were basically guardians of the world, and that meant protecting everything, elfs and men alike. But they didn't o anything in the First Age, because of what i said above.

Imagine the Valar as a group of 7 year olds building with legos and that brat Melkor keeps kicking them over. The kids get fed up and go outside to build sand castles. Meanwhile back inside Melkor starts picking on the toddlers that just got dropped off at the day care. Is it the other kids job to stop him? Where is the babysitter?
"Iluvatar! Melkor's being bad again!"
hehehe

, nice example.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Leviathan

Imagine the Valar as a group of 7 year olds building with legos and that brat Melkor keeps kicking them over. The kids get fed up and go outside to build sand castles. Meanwhile back inside Melkor starts picking on the toddlers that just got dropped off at the day care. Is it the other kids job to stop him? Where is the babysitter?
"Iluvatar! Melkor's being bad again!"
hehehe

That about nails it.

[Leviathan]

Oops... I meant Melkor, I had Sauron on the brain and got ahead of myself typing. Didn't even realise it.

Wasn't Angband under Thangodrim? That's the way I alway took it. Like Angband was a city under Thangordrim. It doesn't really show on any maps that I know of, are the mountains are more like a fence?

[jammi567]

Yeah, they helped to protect him (not that he needed it).

[Leviathan]

The wars of the Valar sound amazing, could you imagine the force these guys must put out in battle, destroying half a continent and all. Forget Superman and the Hulk, give me Melkor and Orome any day

[jammi567]

Somehow, i can't see Melkor wearing blue tights, and flying around saving people.

[Leviathan]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Somehow, i can't see Melkor wearing blue tights, and flying around saving people.

I've never read anywhere in Tolkien's work that Melkor didn't wear tights. I always assumed he stole the patent spandex along with the other treasures of Feanor.

It was never Morgoth that I thought the Valar needed to deal with, it was the trees. Why didn't the take the Silmarils and relight the trees? It was in their power and their right, after the breaking of Angband. The light of the Silmarils was not Feanor's to claim, nor that of his sons, despite all oaths. Once the trees were rekindled the Silmarils might be replaced and Melkor could be dealt with by the light of the trees. The Silmarils returned to the sons of Feanor, oath fulfilled. It was said that no other could claim them but why not loan them out so that the Valar can. . . I dunno. . . save the world from darkness?