How many Maiar were there in Middle-Earth in the third age?

[Noble Elf Lord]

I have counted the 5 wizards+Shelob+Sauron+Balrog=8. Can´t remember any other, can you? If you can remember some more, tell me, please.

[Landroval]

Why would you qualify Shelob as a Maia? While Silmarillion and related works do hint that Ungoliant was a Maia, her offsprings were most likely not . We also have the case of Luthien, who, even though she is directly related to a Maia, she doesnt enjoy that status. Shelob is Ungoliant's last child - even if we stretch this to mean that she was a direct descendant, born last, this is not a reason to think of her as a Maia.

[jammi567]

There is also very stong speculation that Tom Bombadil is a maiar as well, so that's 9.

[The Telcontarion]

You forgot Iarwain Ben-adar, Tom bombadil, the eldest himself. And I would have to agree with Landroval, Shelob was most certainly not a maia.

[Landroval]

Tom himself is a can of worms; Tolkien wanted him to resemble an enigma, in his created universe, or to represent something particular about our world.

Originally Posted by Letter #144

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

Originally Posted by Letter #19 to Stanley Unwin

Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story?

[The Telcontarion]

Interesting Landroval, that does sound right. The discription by Gandalf in the council of elrond of Tom Bombadil made him seem to me to be a very powerful maia spirit, though an enigma he would still be.

[Noble Elf Lord]

"An evil thing in spider form." Can anything lesser than a Maia change/choose their form? And "THING" possibly means something more than a creature of mere physical being. And yes I forgot Tom Bombadil, but is he a Maia or something more? He is said to be the eldest, but does this mean he was there before valar or just before the elves, dwarves and men? By the way, didn´t they say somewhere that Shelob is (at least almost) as mighty as Sauron? (It says under my username I´m a hobbit. Can this be changed?)

[captain carrot]

EDIT**

you become an elven warrior next (at 50 posts) i think ..after 500 you can cutomise your'e own title

er- actually it is an 'enting' next ..then an elven warrior, then an elf lord

( i never understood why ultimately you didn't become an Ent ...but ... there you go! )


.....................

isn't there a thread about Tom?

really must read it, if i can find it - I have always been interested in him.

The spirit of the vanishing countryside ... a jovial green man meets an earth spirit meets Eru.

I pretty much thought he was Eru himself in other worldly form ... obeying his own rules, limited in power in middle earth and there to experience the world he created. Not one to meddle or exercise power, but certainly not one that could have power exercised over him.

A form or representation of Eru, a part. One that will not meddle in the affairs of middle easrth and limits himself to a small estate in the sleepy borders of the Shire.

An enigma, certainly!

But he is THE MASTER. Even Mia are effected by the ring - not so Tom - for he is the master ...the eldest.

The Eldest.

Not Eru in all his form himself, but a worldly manifestation of Eru meets an earth spirit representing the values and love of nature and the countryside and a way of life, perhaps?

[Landroval]

Can anything lesser than a Maia change/choose their form?

How do you know she chose or changed her form? For all we know, this was her natural condition, being a descendant of another spider. Should she have had another form, you might have raised that theory, but in this case it works against your idea.

And "THING" possibly means something more than a creature of mere physical being.

"Thing" usually means something less - not more - than being, especially one with a supposed soul.

Not Eru in all his form himself, but a worldly manifestation of Eru meets an earth spirit representing the values and love of nature and the countryside and a way of life, perhaps?

It doesn't look like Tolkien enjoyed the idea of Tom being a manifestation of Eru:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

([Peter Hastings] also cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God. )
...
As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point.(Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as a commentator). You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday's Epistle – inappositely since that says ex quo. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Thank you captain carrot. Now, I´m stressing the words "in spider form". This suggests that she may have had another if she would have liked to during her time in her egg or where ever such filths slumber when they develop.

[Landroval]

The original quote refers to "evil in spider-form"; to me, this means that Shelob was a character most corrupt, through which evil was manifest. I see not sign of whatsoever that she had at any time the ability to choose or change form.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Landroval

The original quote refers to "evil in spider-form"; to me, this means that Shelob was a character most corrupt, through which evil was manifest. I see not sign of whatsoever that she had at any time the ability to choose or change form.

I think that the original quote means that this evil MIGHT have had another form. Otherwise it would say "an evil spider". And if not so, it´d mean that some of Ungoliant´s evil would have lingered in Shelob, and this would mean that she was at least near to a maia. AND she was not the last child of Ungoliant, for the spideys in Mirkwood are Shelob´s children.

[Landroval]

I think that the original quote means that this evil MIGHT have had another form. Otherwise it would say "an evil spider".

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. I for one have had enough of literary nitpicking.

And if not so, it´d mean that some of Ungoliant´s evil would have lingered in Shelob, and this would mean that she was at least near to a maia.

Maia status is not inheritable - Tolkien discarded the original idea that the valar and maiar have children of the same status as them.

AND she was not the last child of Ungoliant, for the spideys in Mirkwood are Shelob´s children.

But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

[Alcuin]

In the early stages of the telling of the Tale, the Valar had offspring in Arda: Fionwë the son of Manwë and Varda is the predecessor of Eönwë, Herald of Manwë. This concept was dropped; but the idea that Maiar might have offspring with the Children of Eru and other creatures of Arda with hröa made it to publication. I can think of three examples, but none of the offspring were Maiar:

• Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Melian the Maia by Elu Thingol;
• Gwaihir the Windlord and his brother Landroval (ironically enough in this thread), descendants of Thorondor the Maia, sent by Manwë to keep watch over Beleriand;
• and Shelob and the Great Spiders of Ered Gorgoroth, descendants of Ungoliant.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Maia status is not inheritable - Tolkien discarded the original idea that the valar and maiar have children of the same status as them.

I concur wholeheartedly.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. I for one have had enough of literary nitpicking.

But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

Yep. Didn´t mean any offense, just defended my opinion. By the way, do you (all) think that the Watcher was a Maia? I think that it was either a Maia or one of Morgoth´s monsters.

Allright fine, but Shelob had children in Mirkwood and they surely weren´t Maia.

[jammi567]

The spiders in Mirkwood weren't Shelobs, they were Ungoliants.

What made you think they were Shelobs?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I think that the original quote means that this evil MIGHT have had another form. Otherwise it would say "an evil spider". And if not so, it´d mean that some of Ungoliant´s evil would have lingered in Shelob, and this would mean that she was at least near to a maia. AND she was not the last child of Ungoliant, for the spideys in Mirkwood are Shelob´s children.

Any drawing of such a thought from the quote is the reader inferring, not the author implying. Speaking of evil in spider form does not indicate it could change shape at will; Hitler could easily be said to be evil in human form. All it means is evil incarnate as a spider or a man, respectively. Anyway, 'evil in spider form' is a much more beautiful phrase than 'an evil spider'.

Yes, such an evil might have had another form. The 'soul' of Ungoliant (would she have a fea?) might have been in the form of a wolf, or a crow, or some other animal. However, it was in the form of a spider.

And lastly, yes, something less than a Maia can change its shape. Finrod does it, and in some incarnations it seems that Beren and Luthien do, as well.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by captain carrot

I pretty much thought he was Eru himself in other worldly form ... obeying his own rules, limited in power in middle earth and there to experience the world he created. Not one to meddle or exercise power, but certainly not one that could have power exercised over him.

That's an interesting thought; Andreth speaks to Finrod of an Old Hope that Eru will enter the world himself to undo its unmarring. Perhaps this a reference to TB? But on the other hand, it is spoken of as a future event, whereas Tom was here when the first rain-drop fell, as I recall. So it seems probably not. Very interesting idea, though.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

That's an interesting thought; Andreth speaks to Finrod of an Old Hope that Eru will enter the world himself to undo its unmarring. Perhaps this a reference to TB? But on the other hand, it is spoken of as a future event, whereas Tom was here when the first rain-drop fell, as I recall. So it seems probably not. Very interesting idea, though.

Another point to consider is that in LOTR, at the council of Elrond, Gandalf said that if TB took the ring, only if Sauron were to come there himself could he retake the ring from Tb. If TB was ideed Eru, being there in person would not avail Melkor himself, let alone Sauron in taking back the ring.

[captain carrot]

wotcha El tel!

mmm - you miss my point methinks- a part of Eru that would experience the life he wrought, one that would not influence but could not be influenced.

and if i recall the council correctly, it was an opinion shrouded in doubt not certainty ... something about ..if that power was in the earth itself ...

but what does this indisputably tell us?

That gandalf and the Wise do not themselves Know of a certainty what or who exactly Tom is or was capable of. They wonder and respect ... but Facts?

Does this not tell it's own story?

As for JRR - as is evident he revised and hummed and arred. The letters are fine and good references, but they are no more than that.

- and Landroval - what i posit seems (to me at least) to read between so many of JRR's words and thoughts and ideas and letters and history's ... i do not claim it is indisputable - i merely put my thoughts forward - but please do all of us a favour and treat the letters as a valuable source , BUT NOT AS A BIBLE.

Very best, BB