Valar refuse to receive the Ring?

[CAB]

This is a question I would like to ask. Was Elrond’s statement that the Valar wouldn’t receive the Ring (to destroy it) accurate or was it simply an excuse to protect the Elves’ avenue of escape from Middle Earth, the Grey Havens?

Elrond says that the ring belongs to Middle Earth and therefore those in Middle Earth must deal with it, yet it was made by a Maia originally associated with Aule. Would Aule really be unwilling to swing his hammer a couple of times to free Middle Earth from the tyranny of one of his own people? Can it be argued that the Valar would refuse to help in these matters when they had sent the Istari, members of their own order, to help defeat Sauron?

It seems possible that Elrond and Gandalf were willing to put the inhabitants of Middle Earth at much greater risk of falling under Sauron’s rule in order to lessen the risk to the Havens. If Sauron regains the One Ring it may only mean a little less time for the Elves to linger in Middle Earth, but if the Havens are destroyed in Sauron’s pursuit of the Ring the Elves may be trapped.

Any opinions?

[Gordis]

Very interesting question, CAB.

I don't have a firm opinion on the matter. On one hand, it might well have been an excuse: the Counsil was very tight-lipped as there were plenty of outsiders present. On the other hand, Elrond and Galadriel had the possibility to make contact with the Valar and ask their opinion on the matter early in the Third Age.

I don't doubt that the question what to do with the Ring had been very acute in TA 1-3, when Isildur held the Ring. I believe, the fire of Mt.Doom had been extinct by then, so, probably, there were no means to destroy the Ring in ME.
The elves might have contacted Valinor then - sending a message with one of the departing Elves, and got a negative answer (probably carried by the Istari).
If such a proposal had been made, the Valar might have refused because of two possible reasons:
1. The Ring-project was a work of rebellious Noldor, and Valinor had no wish to deal with consequences of their foolishness.
2. The Valar were afraid of the evil effect the Ring might have on themselves. A Vala - what a prize catch for the little golden Ring!

But that leaves open the question why Glorfindel, who was most likely a member of the White Counsil, was not aware of this.

Then if the Ring cannot be kept from him for ever by strength' said Glorfindel, `two things only remain for us to attempt: to send it over the Sea, or to destroy it.'
`But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,' said Elrond. `And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.'

.

So, perhaps, the Valar were never actually asked, and it was fully Erlond's and Gandalf decision to send the Ring to Mordor. I believe it was heavily influenced by Gandalf. He might have known that the Ring was meant be destroyed there as it had been in the Music.

[arvedui_last_king]

I don't personally think that the destruction of the ring was in the music - I think it was one of those things hidden by Iluvatar.

[CAB]

I believe you are definitely right Gordis that the question of what to do with the Ring had been discussed by the Wise before the Council of Elrond. Actually, I think the Council was just a courtesy to those present (especially Aragorn and Frodo) and that the matter had already been decided. Does anyone on the Council seem to agree with Elrond and Gandalf on their decision?

Also look at what Gandalf says to Frodo in Bag End when Frodo asks where he should take the Ring after he leaves the Shire. “But you cannot see very far. Neither can I. It may be your task to find the Cracks of Doom; but that quest may be for others: I do not know.” This quote can probably be interpreted different ways but one view is that Gandalf already knew that the Ring would be sent to Mordor.

I disagree though that the Ring was likely a danger to the Valar. If Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, who are far weaker than the Valar and in a much, much more precarious position than anyone in Valinor, are able to refuse the Ring, then most likely the Valar could too. If Manwe was willing to let Melkor wander freely through Valinor, would he be afraid of an object made by Melkor’s much weaker servant? Maybe Manwe had learned his lesson?

[Gordis]

The Valar are also much more conceited than even Galadriel.
In their power they can believe themselves safe... And the Ring works subtly.

The Valar are not beyond turning Evil. Wasn't Manwe Melkor's brother?

Actually, Aule is the one most endangered: two of his Maiar had turned to evil: Sauron and Saruman. The Dwarves he made were greedy and often served Sauron.

Perhaps there was something attuned to evil in the Vala himself?

[Old toby's wicked weed]

what meaning of "evil" are you attributing in your meaning Mr Gordis?

If coveting is a sin and evil, then are not most elves from west evil?

[Gordis]

I meant two polar forces in Tolkien world: Good and Evil.

I didn't mean the occasional evil deeds that characters on the side of Good sometimes do. Like Feanor and his sons etc.

And I am Ms. Gordis , look at my title.

Welcome to the Moot!

[Sam]

Could the Valar have posibly not wanted to save middle earth from all its troubles again?

Perhaps if Elrond had asked them to help, they may have told him that the inhabitants of middle earth had brought it upon themselves, so they needed to get rid of it themselves.

[Jon S.]

Occam's Razor - had it been possible to eliminate the ring by exporting it from Middle Earth there wouldn't have been a book and we would not be here discussing the issue (= also why the Eagles couldn't have flown the ring to Mt. Doom and just dropped it in.)

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Occam's Razor - had it been possible to eliminate the ring by exporting it from Middle Earth there wouldn't have been a book and we would not be here discussing the issue (= also why the Eagles couldn't have flown the ring to Mt. Doom and just dropped it in.)

Of course you are right Jon. However, I was trying to look at the question from a story-internal perspective. The answer given in the book by Elrond doesn’t seem sufficient to me. Maybe you are saying that this is one of those questions (like the eagle/taxi one) that has no good story-internal answer?

[Jon S.]

No, you're right, this one should have an internal answer because we know that Elrond (and thus also Gandalf) considered the possibility but rejected it based on their knowledge of the Valar (that in contrast to the Eagles scenario that the book does not record them even considering under circumstances that one would expected them to). So the answer is as given, "We can't send the ring to the Valar because they wouldn't accept it." This thread is about answering the "why not?" question, all I meant to suggest is that as no direct answer is supplied in the book, the simplest one is to have done so successfully would not have allowed the plot to continue.

My own view? The Valar intervened indirectly by sending the Wizards. That was enough. (If I were to be a wise guy about it I might add that having already provided the toilet paper, going further would have reduced the free peoples of ME to babies who couldn't wipe their butts for themselves. )

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Valar were afraid of the evil effect the Ring might have on themselves. A Vala - what a prize catch for the little golden Ring!

Agree with you, the Ring "gives a power according the measure of each possessor", so the pull to the more powerfull possessor must be much stronger. Valar untroubled existence definately would be at danger, while Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf have nothing to fear from the Ring. Remember your own remark, when we discussed the question, why the "Wise" have been able to withstand the Ring's attraction? Because they were protected by their own rings.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But that leaves open the question why Glorfindel, who was most likely a member of the White Counsil, was not aware of this.

The answer is obvious: it was the show, played as by notes.The major players were already picked up .The "Wise" were very well aware who will be the Ring bearer, because he was picked up by Gandalf long before the Council. CAB was right on this point.
For years the Ring allowed to bond with poor unsuspected Frodo and at present time he would never willingly part with it. He had no alternative to choose...”Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go...And I could not “make" you - except by force.” It was said 17 years ago.
So the staged show unravels in front of unsuspecting audience. Nobody asked Dwarf's opinion or Hobbit's. From the beginning all discussion about different options of the Ring destruction had been held just between the Elves . They were asking the right questions, and they were giving themselves the right answers, convincing everybody in common danger, the danger of the total destruction of the M.E. They didn't care too much about Middle-earth , but they needed TIME and PROTECTION to enjoy peace and to "emigrate" without rush. And they were getting protection while the Ruling Ring was far away and not destroyed.So, they aim was not on destruction iof the Ring, they wanted it TO GET LOST.

[GreyMouser]

The Valar over time had distanced themselves from Middle-Earth. They fought directly with Melkor twice; then they sent the great wave against Numenor and bent the Seas. I think that by this time the idea was that, hey, you've got to grow up and deal with your own problems without outside help- consistent with why, in our world, God isn't constantly helping out the righteous with miracles, though He occassionally sends out an angel in disguise- but no Michael in all his glory sent down to blast the Panzers.

[Landroval]

The Valar were afraid of the evil effect the Ring might have on themselves. A Vala - what a prize catch for the little golden Ring!

Nothing of what even Melkor did ever corrupted a single vala or valie; the maiar are of lesser degree than the valar and to suppose that a mere object, made by such a maia, could dominate a "god", just doesn't have a sound foundation.

Remember your own remark, when we discussed the question, why the "Wise" have been able to withstand the Ring's attraction? Because they were protected by their own rings.

I don't know where that discussion occured, but the elven rings had Sauron's taint in them and were subject to the One Ring, so they are a breach in one's resistance against the one ring, not the other way around.

So, they aim was not on destruction iof the Ring, they wanted it TO GET LOST.

I disagree; this idea goes against everything said in the books. The elves would have had more time if they hid the ring in the seas, for example, than of sending in right into Mordor. Moreover, given the diminishing number of elves and of their strength, and the increasing strengh and number of Sauron's army, his victory would have occured sooner or later, had the one ring not been destroyed - as Gandalf made it plainly clear during The last debate.

then they sent the great wave against Numenor and bent the Seas

Eru did that, at the supplication of the valar.
Cf Myths Transformed:

Nonetheless the breaking of Thangorodrim and the extrusion of Melkor was the end of 'Morgoth' as such, and for that age (and many ages after). It was thus, also, in a sense the end of Manwe's prime function and task as Elder King, until the End. He had been the Adversary of the Enemy.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

My own view? The Valar intervened indirectly by sending the Wizards. That was enough. (If I were to be a wise guy about it I might add that having already provided the toilet paper, going further would have reduced the free peoples of ME to babies who couldn't wipe their butts for themselves. )

Thank you for your reply Jon. I guess I couldn’t really argue with the Valar if this was their line of reasoning (not that it would ever be easy to argue with a Vala). In the end it was enough.

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

The Valar over time had distanced themselves from Middle-Earth. They fought directly with Melkor twice; then they sent the great wave against Numenor and bent the Seas. I think that by this time the idea was that, hey, you've got to grow up and deal with your own problems without outside help- consistent with why, in our world, God isn't constantly helping out the righteous with miracles, though He occassionally sends out an angel in disguise- but no Michael in all his glory sent down to blast the Panzers.

My problem with calling the Ring “the people of Middle Earth’s problem” is that (despite the Elves’ involvement) the main cause of the problem is Sauron. Sauron is one of the Valar’s own people. Also, after the end of the First Age, he was taken captive and commanded to return to Valinor for judgement. They obviously considered him to be their problem then. Did they change their minds just because they screwed up and let him escape?

Originally Posted by Olmer

Agree with you, the Ring "gives a power according the measure of each possessor", so the pull to the more powerfull possessor must be much stronger. Valar untroubled existence definately would be at danger, while Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf have nothing to fear from the Ring. Remember your own remark, when we discussed the question, why the "Wise" have been able to withstand the Ring's attraction? Because they were protected by their own rings.

Olmer, I am very glad you posted on this thread. If I may say so, you were my main “target” when I started it. I have to disagree once again though about the Ring’s danger to the Valar. I think that their “untroubled existence” would have lessened any pull the Ring might have on them.

“Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.” Gandalf-The Fellowship of the Ring

“We do not desire the power of wizard-lords, only strength to defend ourselves, strength in a just cause. And behold! in our need chance brings to light the Ring of Power.” Boromir-The Fellowship of the Ring

Here imminent danger, especially from Sauron, seems to cause a temptation to take/use the Ring. I would guess that part of the reason that the Hobbits were, initially at least, so unaffected by desire for the ring was the ease and security of their lives. The Valar, of course, had no need of the One to defend themselves.

I would also question that the Ring posed a greater threat (temptation) to the powerful. The only two people we know of who tried to take the Ring from another are Smeagol and Boromir. Many much more powerful people came in close proximity of the Ring without ever attempting to steal it.

There are other reasons I don’t think the Valar would be seduced by the One Ring.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Nothing of what even Melkor did ever corrupted a single vala or valie; the maiar are of lesser degree than the valar and to suppose that a mere object, made by such a maia, could dominate a "god", just doesn't have a sound foundation.

I absolutely agree. Melkor was the ultimate corruptor. If he couldn’t corrupt any Valar in the many years of his freedom before and after his first captivity why would we think that the much less powerful Ring (which would hopefully be destroyed shortly after it arrived at Valinor) could?

Originally Posted by Landroval

I don't know where that discussion occured, but the elven rings had Sauron's taint in them and were subject to the One Ring, so they are a breach in one's resistance against the one ring, not the other way around.

I agree again. Without having seen the conversation you are speaking of, my feelings are that the holders of the Three would be more, not less, affected. If nothing else, taking the One would protect the Three from the domination of another or being made powerless by the One’s destruction.

Nonetheless the breaking of Thangorodrim and the extrusion of Melkor was the end of 'Morgoth' as such, and for that age (and many ages after). It was thus, also, in a sense the end of Manwe's prime function and task as Elder King, until the End. He had been the Adversary of the Enemy.

This is an interesting quote Landroval. Maybe the Valar were unwilling to give more help just because it wasn’t their job anymore. Seems kind of selfish, but I guess they would just be keeping in character.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Remember your own remark, when we discussed the question, why the "Wise" have been able to withstand the Ring's attraction? Because they were protected by their own rings.

Was it my own remark? I don't remember it at all... Could you be mistaken?
I am not sure I agree with it. I believe Galadriel was sorely tempted to wield the One against Sauron. Gandalf admitted he was afraid to take the Ring himself. And what about Saruman? I am not sure what Ring did he have: one of the Seven or a creation of his own, as he claimed? Anyway, the lure of the One proved irresistible to him. So, why were the Rings a protection?.

Originally Posted by Olmer

So the staged show unravels in front of unsuspecting audience. Nobody asked Dwarf's opinion or Hobbit's. From the beginning all discussion about different options of the Ring destruction had been held just between the Elves . They were asking the right questions, and they were giving themselves the right answers, convincing everybody in common danger, the danger of the total destruction of the M.E. They didn't care too much about Middle-earth , but they needed TIME and PROTECTION to enjoy peace and to "emigrate" without rush. And they were getting protection while the Ruling Ring was far away and not destroyed. .So, they aim was not on destruction iof the Ring, they wanted it TO GET LOST.

I am sure the Ring being lost was quite OK for the Elves. They were happy believing that the Ring was lost in the River (they didn't even bother to dive or dredge for it ), they were happy knowing that the Ring is concealed in a hobbit hole in the Shire. They were content -until Sauron's power grew to the point where even WITHOUT the Ring he became a threat to them. Even if they hid the Ring again, or sent it over the Sea - Sauron would be there and his power would be steadily growing. So, they decided to use the Ring against Sauron , not by wielding it, but by destroying it.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

They were content -until Sauron's power grew to the point where even WITHOUT the Ring he became a threat to them. Even if they hid the Ring again, or sent it over the Sea - Sauron would be there and his power would be steadily growing.

When, if ever, since the battle of Dagorlad, Sauron have been a threat for Elves?
For Gondor -yes, for Rohan - maybe... The opressed naitives, even without Sauron's involvement, had they own reasons for open conflicts with them. Even in the destruction of Arnor's kingdom, for which I give a credit not only to the King of Angmar, but in the greater part to the power-hungry ever fighting like cats and dogs," bereft of dignity" (here I'm totally agree with Denethor) descendans of Isildur, and the "great help" of Earnur, turning the inhabitant land in desolated waste, hardy have been any Sauron's intentions to intimidate the Elves to the point of panicking flee.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I disagree; this idea goes against everything said in the books. The elves would have had more time if they hid the ring in the seas, for example, than of sending in right into Mordor.

Everything , what said in the book, IMPLIES this idea.
Sauron left the Elves alone and hardly have been bothered with them, because, I think, they have a silent agreement. So, all bawling about big bad Sauron and poor opressed and incapacitated elves was a big hogwash. They were quite contend with situation, othervise they would pack theis suitcases much sooner.
As Tolkien said, they wanted to have a cake and eat it.They never really meant to sent the Ring to Valar. They wanted it to be somewhere on ME, hidden, lost, so they would continue to live in theirs own kingdoms, be their own Kings.

Remember, all big guys supposed to leave the company whenever they would feel like it, just the hobbits have been obliged to carry on the quest. Only naive hobbits believed in the story, which the Elves cooked up for them, smart and realistic Boromir told right away that it is folly, but has been expertly hushed down.
How much chances had a small, intelligent, unexperienced in combat hobbit, who is having absolutely no idea, where the mount Doom is and how to get to it? I think, ziro to nothing. It was a 100% sureness that he will get lost and perish in hostile counties and with him will get lost also the Ring.
I think it was a very brilliant idea: to pusue their own plans without broadcasting theirs involvement. By any measure the plan was a foolproof, but, I guess, the fate was not on their side.

[The Gaffer]

I think there is some truth in this, though I don't think it was some sort of elvish conspiracy.

Elves did not "belong" in Middle-Earth. Some of them lived there, either because of Melkor's interference making them fear the Valar and not travel West in the first place, or because they rebelled and returned. But the books are full of wistful elves concerning themselves with higher matters than the here and now.

So the LOTR books are at a time when the Dominion of Men is about to be fulfilled. The Valar clearly believed that what was of Middle Earth should stay there. The depth of that dichotomy became deeper throughout the First, Second and Third ages. (What was the thing about the Seas not being "bent" before? I think it was after the Downfall of Numenor at the end of the Second Age, so that Men could no longer even approach it)

Earendil alone managed to get them to break their rule, and he had a Silmaril, and Beleriand was in ruin.

If I could take one thing out of LOTR it would be the eagles...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

When, if ever, since the battle of Dagorlad, Sauron have been a threat for Elves?
For Gondor -yes, for Rohan - maybe... The opressed naitives, even without Sauron's involvement, had they own reasons for open conflicts with them. Even in the destruction of Arnor's kingdom, for which I give a credit not only to the King of Angmar, but in the greater part to the power-hungry ever fighting like cats and dogs," bereft of dignity" (here I'm totally agree with Denethor) descendans of Isildur, and the "great help" of Earnur, turning the inhabitant land in desolated waste, hardy have been any Sauron's intentions to intimidate the Elves to the point of panicking flee.

There is much truth in this. The symbiosis of Lorien and Thranduil's Kingdom with Dol-Guldur was really suspicious. Angmar once besieged Imladris, but it was more like a blockade, to prevent the Elves from sending help to Cardolan and Arthedain, than a real attempt to destroy the Elven Kingdom.

How much chances had a small, intelligent, unexperienced in combat hobbit, who is having absolutely no idea, where the mount Doom is and how to get to it? I think, ziro to nothing. It was a 100% sureness that he will get lost and perish in hostile counties and with him will get lost also the Ring.

You have to agree, Olmer, that the Ring sent to Mordor with a hobbit had MUCH more chances to end up in the hands of Sauron than to get lost without trace. Even if the Wise did realise that the nazgul had no real motivation to search for the Ring in earnest, there were also orcs. Wasn't it simpler to go throw the Ring into the Sea?

[Landroval]

When, if ever, since the battle of Dagorlad, Sauron have been a threat for Elves?
For Gondor -yes, for Rohan - maybe... The opressed naitives, even without Sauron's involvement, had they own reasons for open conflicts with them. Even in the destruction of Arnor's kingdom, for which I give a credit not only to the King of Angmar, but in the greater part to the power-hungry ever fighting like cats and dogs," bereft of dignity" (here I'm totally agree with Denethor) descendans of Isildur, and the "great help" of Earnur, turning the inhabitant land in desolated waste, hardy have been any Sauron's intentions to intimidate the Elves to the point of panicking flee.

If ever?? Sauron's plan wasn't to get the elves to flee, but to "destroy" them (Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion). As far as Arnor is concerned, I doubt that the disunity of the dunedain could have ever lead to the utter destruction of the three kingdoms - it was Angmar's intervention which lead to the falls of Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain. During the war with the witch-king, two kindgoms were on one side, while Rhudaur was overwhelmed and the dunedain there could not make a difference.

Sauron left the Elves alone and hardly have been bothered with them, because, I think, they have a silent agreement. So, all bawling about big bad Sauron and poor opressed and incapacitated elves was a big hogwash.

In the council of Elrond, Glorfindel and Elrond make it clear that the elves do not have the power to withstand Sauron, and the remaining elven realms face destruction; it is also these two elves who identify the destruction of the ring as an alternative and who argue that this is the path to be taken.