What is the Eye of Sauron?

[Gordis]

Hi, everybody,
I have a question for you. I am not aware of its being discussed before.

WHAT is the eye of Sauron?
I don't mean the physical feature of his body, but the Eye he used to see things far away:

And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.

and

... and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay...

Could the Eye be the Palantir of Minas Ithil used by Sauron? Or was the Eye a special device?

[Beren3000]

Very very interesting question, gordis!!

I don't think this "eye" is the palantir. I think it was the "physical feature"; but I don't like Peter Jackson's interpretation of Sauron as only an Eye. I think that Sauron had a full body but his eye had this piercing gaze because he had a strong lifeforce on account of his being a Maia and all...
To support my point, Aragorn had the heralds cry "Let the lord of the Black Land come forth!" I don't exactly see Sauron as a huge eyeball rolling down Barad-Dur toward the Morannon. IMO, this means that Sauron had an incarnate form.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I don't think this "eye" is the palantir. I think it was the "physical feature"; but I don't like Peter Jackson's interpretation of Sauron as only an Eye. I think that Sauron had a full body but his eye had this piercing gaze because he had a strong lifeforce on account of his being a Maia and all...
To support my point, Aragorn had the heralds cry "Let the lord of the Black Land come forth!" I don't exactly see Sauron as a huge eyeball rolling down Barad-Dur toward the Morannon. IMO, this means that Sauron had an incarnate form.

I agree with all my heart that Sauron had a physical body. Perhaps he had one or two flaming eyes with vertical slits. One eye, likely. (Why does that always remind me of Gil-Galad's Aiglos?)

But did Sauron need some extra device to see far with his eye/eyes? Because if he had, that device looks very much like a palantir to me. Either he invented something of his own (as Galadriel with her mirror) or he used the palantir of Minas Ithil.
Normally people were not aware when someone looked at them using the palantir. But perhaps with Sauron being a very powerful bad maia and all, his gaze could be seen or felt directly at close range (within Mordor) and felt by sensibilized persons (wearing a ring or looking into the Mirror) at a longer range?
Any ideas?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

IMHO the 'eye of sauron' refers to the fact that sauron had taken control of the ithil stone, maybe the influence of the nine that he held () made people aware that they were being observed [ref to: frodo on amon hen, black arm v. gandalf's voice]

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Normally people were not aware when someone looked at them using the palantir.

Normally people aware when somebody is looking at them even without palantir.Try to stare at somebody's back, eventually person becomes uncomfortable and turns around.
The third eye IS exist in our body and this is devise for communication on body's energy level, only it's still in primodial stage in human.
Sauron is a higher being with energy amount surpassing humans many times, therefore his subliminal potential for communication is immense.
The Eye of Sauron, as I see, is a cluster of pulsating, fiery energy deep inside his mind (literally, it's what we call the Third Eye), which is he able to send at will far and away.
Something like some seers are doing.
Nothing paranormal, just highly enhanced body function.

[Nurvingiel]

Awesome question Gordis.

I third that Sauron has a physical body. Not fair to look upon like when he deceived people as Annatar, but certainly a physical form. "There are four fingers on the Black Hand," Gollum said. It's not a stretch to say that there's a body to go along with it.

I don't think of the Eye of Sauron as being in anyway an actual eye. I think it's how people refer to Sauron's will, which is powerful enough to perceive his enemies at a distance.

Let's take the situation on Amon Hen, (which I sketchily recall). Frodo was wearing the Ring, making him much easier for Sauron to perceive. Frodo only avoided discovery because Gandalf, now the White, strove with Sauron and distracted him. Gandalf also urged Frodo to take the Ring off, which he did, making him harder to find.

I don't think Sauron physically sees people with his "eye", I think he perceives their spirit. Maybe like the Nazguls, Sauron's only half operating in the physical world. That's why wearing the Ring makes Frodo easier to find - he becomes much more a part of the spiritual world. Which would explain why he had trouble finding Frodo Ringless.

He probably thought whoever had been wearing the Ring was trying to master it, not destroy it. He knew pretty much nothing about Hobbits, so maybe he had trouble recognizing their presence. I'm having trouble articulating this because I'm running out of canonical evidence.

However, I don't think that Sauron actually had a flaming spotlight of Mordor atop Barad-dur, in addition to an actual body. This seems a bit silly to me, and Sauron is anything but silly. I think Sauron could focus his will in such a powerful way that it would seem like a physical presence.

I think the Eye is a metaphor for Sauron's will, the way Gandalf used "Sauron's arm has grown long" to be a metaphor for Sauron's increasing power and influence.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the eye refers to the way that Sauron finds out about the goings on in ME, using 'spys' and cretures and beasts that are his service, although I like Nurv's idea of being half in the spirit world, probably by possesing the Nine.

[Butterbeer]

well as usual Gordis has posted another thought provoking question.

and as usual i'll be silly before serious...

...so.. since we know that Sauron took baths, possibly wearing water-proof gloves ... we can infer he had a body and PJ can go visit the great fiery Optician in the sky on that one.

i do not think a device (as galadriel's mirror etc): i generally concur with the mix of mia spirit, power and manifestastion of will, most of what nurv valiantly attempts to articulate, and the usegage in this respect of the Palantar as a useful but not imperative tool in this respect.

it seems from what we know that when the wise or ring sensitive are perceptive at all to the will or mind of sauron they see this will or sense Sauron as a a fiery eye: does this not as Gordis suggests in some small form represent a physical manifestation of Sauron's non-fair pyschical form but more in terms of the mind's eye or third eye a spiritual description of the spirit: an evil, fiery searching will fierce, incisive, stabbing and ever ever looking for the one?

the use of Fire itself suggests a spirit consumed and a rejection of Tolkien's spiritual or religious views somewhat in line with the pride and folly of Denethor and his Pagan Pyre?

BB

[Nurvingiel]

Interesting Butterbeer. I don't really think of it as a mind's eye as you and Olmer related, but actually what I said is pretty much the same idea.

Maybe the eye of flame is the way Sauron's spirit/will/mind's eye manifests itself in your mind if he is focusing his will on you (ie. if you're wearing the Ring).

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet surely the firey eye can not exist aswell as Sauron's physical form, as he would be 'in two places at once'.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

does this not as Gordis suggests in some small form represent a physical manifestation of Sauron's non-fair pyschical form but more in terms of the mind's eye or third eye a spiritual description of the spirit:
BB

I beg you pardon, but let's to clarify it .
When I was talking about the third eye I did not mean that it is a vertically slit flaming eye right in the middle of the forehead, suggested by Gordis. My idea is more in tune with Nurvingiel:the ability to see on spiritual level .

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Interesting Butterbeer. I don't really think of it as a mind's eye as you and Olmer related, but actually what I said is pretty much the same idea.

Maybe the eye of flame is the way Sauron's spirit/will/mind's eye manifests itself in your mind if he is focusing his will on you (ie. if you're wearing the Ring).

its not the easiest one to pin down in words is it?

Kind of like an avatar: but Sauron's will is so strong and of a Forecful nature that most, even Galadriel percieve it in the same way?

Or:
with the concave or convex? magnification of the palantir: all we are seeing or perceiving is (that Will or 3rd eye force etc manifested in visual form in the receivers' mind as broadcast from) the view we have of Saurons eye or eyes as Gordis suggests of him looking close into the Palantir, which being a tool he's mastered and in control of and uses to sharpen or amplify his will in ME:

i.e what we see is his eye or eyes which are slits of flame from his pysical form magnified by the curvature of the palantir into a massive fiery eye which is how the mind or spirit on the astral or whatever plain thus visualises Sauron.
???
like i say words aren't easy to pin down here!

that would explain the "EYE" representaton in galadriels's and others' mind's eye but also get away from this ridiculous great big floating disembodied furnace of an eye idea!

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I beg you pardon, but let's to clarify it .
When I was talking about the third eye I did not mean that it is a vertically slit flaming eye right in the middle of the forehead, suggested by Gordis. My idea is more in tune with Nurvingiel:the ability to see on spiritual level .

well yeah to clarify Olmer i wasn't suggesting that you were suggesting that at all -
and i am hoping to merge to the 2 ideas together, see above


i.e the spiritual force, as you and Nurvingiel outline but perhaps based on a pysical view of sauron's bodily actual eye or eyes as viewed from close up in a palantir: remember how pippin is drawn physically close to the palantir: he would surely appear with a fish-eye lens effect (if you know waht i mean: i.e curved and distorted in aspect ratio and appearance)

[Snowdog]

Forgetting P.J.'s searchlight, I always interpreted the 'eye of Sauron' in my readings as a sort of combination of his Maia spirit, his remaining will (the rest he had made into the One Ring), and the articulate use of the Palantir to help his vision. Of course he couldn't see all and know all, but still, even while dispossessed of the Ring, he was still quite a formidable being. I don't think he had physical shape per se.

Butterbeer, you make perfect sense to me as its how I understand Sauron.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Forgetting P.J.'s searchlight, I always interpreted the 'eye of Sauron' in my readings as a sort of combination of his Maia spirit, his remaining will (the rest he had made into the One Ring), and the articulate use of the Palantir to help his vision. Of course he couldn't see all and know all, but still, even while dispossessed of the Ring, he was still quite a formidable being. I don't think he had physical shape per se.

well put


re: physical shape: how did he (or didn't he: ask Gordis) then wear any rings? were they virtual rings (in our terms on this plane) or exisited effctively on his finger in the spiritual world or the effective wraith world of the Nazgul only??
how then does that work?

i agree with your summation to a large degree but think he must have taken a physical form

[Snowdog]

The way I always viewed this was if the ring was brought to him, his spirit would enshroud it and he would again be united with the rest of his strength and will, allowing him to take a physical shape.

[Gordis]

First of all, I wish to thank everybody who found this question “though-inspiring”. Actually, like Saruman, I am very much interested in foul crafts and evil devices of the Enemy . I hope it will not ruin my reputation entirely .

Originally Posted by Olmer

When I was talking about the third eye I did not mean that it is a vertically slit flaming eye right in the middle of the forehead, suggested by Gordis.

Nay, I have never said that Sauron has a single cyclops eye in the middle of his forehead! On the contrary, I believe that Sauron’s body originally (after the Downfall of Numenor) had 2 eyes, both red and with vertical slits. But in the Third age he has regained the same body, mutilated in the Last Alliance battles. We know for sure he lacked one finger. But Isildur cut it AFTER Sauron was brought down, probably killed. He must have had other critical injuries inflicted by Gil-Galad and Elendil. What were those other injuries?. If Sauron was helmed and mail-clad from head to foot, there were few vulnerable places. Very likely, Gil-Galad stabbed Sauron through one of his eyes with Aiglos, his lance.
Eyes, like fingers, do not regenerate. So, I envisage Sauron with a black eye-patch like an old pirate.

[Gordis]

In the question of the Eye I have had no firm opinion of my own. Those of you who think that the Eye could be a channeled evil will or a far-seeng “third eye” may well be right. There were examples of Valar and Maiar with far-seeing eyes:
Morgoth, for example, did have the eye-sight with a resolution like a spy-satellite’s.

(Silm) Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said: 'Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.'

And Hurin could even READ an inscription on the tombstone of his son leagues away near Nargothrond! (An aside question: how come Morgoth was unable to find Gondolin then?).

Another example is Gandalf the White (!Not the Gray!). Upon his return from death he says: ‘I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off, but many things that are close at hand I cannot see.” And indeed he proves his new ability on several occasions:“ He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. 'No,' he said in a soft voice, 'it has gone beyond our reach.” And again in Minas Tirith: “he went up on to the walls nearby; and there like a figure carven in white he stood in the new sun and looked out. And he beheld with the sight that was given to him all that had befallen”. Before the War, Gandalf the Grey seemed to have no such abilities: he had great trouble locating Frodo when he followed him from Bag-end to Weathertop and ‘could not find him in the wilderness”. So it seems that Gandalf was given this “improved eyesight” in Valinor before his re-assignment to Middle Earth.

On the other hand, I can think of some arguments that Sauron needed a palantir for his far-seeing:

1.Timing: It seems that the Eye was first mentioned AFTER Sauron returned to Mordor (TA 2951). No one has heard of the Eye of the Necromancer, or so I think. It fits with the timing of Sauron getting the Ithil stone. As I have tried to prove in the “Nazgul freedom” tread, after having mastered his unwilling ringwraiths, Sauron must have taken the Palantir along with the Nine rings. The Lord of Morgul surely kept the Palantir for himself from 2002 till 2951. If fits also with the fact that nobody has had ill-effects from using the palantiri till Sauron’s return to Mordor. I don’t believe it that in 1000 years not a single one of the Stewards ever tried to look in the Minas Tirith stone! In 2759: “Saruman went to Isengard in hope to find the Stone still there, and with the purpose of building up a power of his own” (App.II).. He hardly waited 200 years to look in the stone, IMHO. So BEFORE 2951 it was not so perilous to use the palantiri. There was NO EYE YET to catch the unwary user.
2. Sauron in Dol Guldur was unable either to locate Gollum wearing the Ring in his native village (2463-2470), or to locate Bilbo wearing the Ring in Mirkwood (2941). In both cases the Ring was worn practically under Sau’s nose! Perhaps he felt it, but to LOCATE it he needed a Palantir.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I' ll answer your two questions from the last post.

1. I agree that the 'Eye' may have something to do with the Ithil stone but I would also say that no Steward had looked into the palantir until Denethor. Denethor lost his wisdom and IMO he saw that he power of Sauron was growing and he thought that if he did not confront him then all would be lost. Or it is a possibility that he had no idea that Sauron had the Ithil stone, as Aragorn and Gandalf did not know how S & S were communicating until Pippin found the palantir at Isengard. In answer to the Saruman part I think that there is a chance that Saruman was corrupted before 2951 (unless there is evidence that he wasn't.
2. Sauron was weak and IMO wasn't initially looking for tthe Ring when he set up Dol Guldur, but knew it was near the Gladden. IMO he realised the Ring was near but took it for the wrong place. He knew Isildur fell in the Gladden and sensing the Ring was near decided that the logical place for it to be was the Gladden. So he sent his servants to search for it, think it was soon to be found and bought to him. IMO he only realised that he was wrong when he found out that the White Council were going to attack, so busied himself preparing for his departure, and not for search the North East of ME for the One.

[Butterbeer]

then Sauron clearly (i should say probably) uses and needs the palantir to project his sight and will and mind and thought etc over both distance ( and time??? ref: gandal's abilities and re: suggested abilities of palnatir?),

as sauron looks very closely into (perhaps his eye/ eyes (if gordis is right - has suffered damage?) into the Palantir to do it: the palantir being a sphere is therefore effectively a convex shape and acts like a wide angle lens: therefore if Sauron's eye is close to it his eye will be exagerated and fill up the palantir:

perhaps this explains why he is percieved by Galadriel, et al as an eye: this is the mental visual representation to their mind's eye etc or image as projected:
i really think we can discount any idea of him being just an eye: for all sorts of obvious and potentially humorous reasons! (why would he need bath gloves? How does he sing in the bath etc? How would he deal with / would he suffer from itchy virtual nose syndrome?: the one where amputees's brains still relate to no longer existing body parts etc: what if he met Mrs right: the erstwhile Mordor homemaker?: there'd be some obvious problems there too y'know!)

by the way i don't think boromir 1 became a wraith: took too long and there were already the nine: concur it means some other type of morgul wound: im sure tolkien and the annals of Gondor would have had something to say on the matter if he had.