Suite101: Notinole from Babylon to Middle-earth

Tolkien researchers haven't overlooked the fundamentals of Tolkien's numerals, but the fundamentals of mathematics in Middle-earth may be easier to discern than previously believed.


Here is an excerpt from the article:

It requires a lot of nerve to criticize one of the most respected Tolkien linguists in the world, and to suggest he may be wrong, especially when you are no linguist yourself. But I'm going to suggest that Helge Fauskanger, and other linguists who have followed his lead or confirmed or accepted his work, may be wrong. About Elvish numbers. Numerals, that is, not the populations of Elves.

A great deal of work has been done on Elvish numerals, and Helge has only built upon the work of others. Indeed, until I began looking into the possibility of constructing a numeral system (I was sure others had attempted to do this), I hadn't really given the matter much thought. Every time someone asked, "Are there tengwar for numerals?" I would quickly say, "No, not in any published text I have seen." Well, that's what you get for not looking at the published texts before answering questions. It occurred to me that there must, indeed, be at least one candidate for an example of Elvish numerals: Aragorn's letter to Sam. And when I checked Sauron Defeated I was pleased to read two examples of Elvish numberrs. After all, Aragorn mentions a specific date in the letter.

Now, these two tengwarin numbers are not unknown examples. Helge and others have been aware of them for years. Since I never explored the minutiae of Elven writing systems in that kind of detail the examples were quite obscure to me. So I'm hardly revealing anything new here. Except that most people, I am sure, do not know about these numbers. Are there other examples of tengwar numerals? Yes. And no. Yes, some people have tried to construct tengwar numeral systems. No, not so far as I know, are there any other examples by the hand of J.R.R. Tolkien.

David Doughan and Julian Bradfield published a tengwar numeral system in Quettar Special Publication no 1 in 1987. Daniel Smith has used the Doughan and Bradfield work as part of the Tengwar resource for the Electronic Tolkien Encyclopedia Project. Doughan and Bradfield's work, which would at most be compatible with The Lost Road and Other Writings but not later books, has apparently been the foundation of all tengwar research.

Read the full article here

What is "notinole"?


[link=www.ezboard.com]testing 123[/link]

I combined it from the Quenya words "note" (that's an e-umlaut on the end of the word, so I think it's supposed to sound like "noh-tay") and "nole" (another e-umlaut).

After perusing Helge Fauskanger's Ardalambion, I decided this was the closest word to something like "number theory" that I could devise. "Note" is the word for "number", and "noti" is its plural. "Nole" is the word for long study. So, literally, the combined word is intended to mean "study (of) numbers".

I've haven't heard from any linguists on the essay, so I assume no one in the linguistic community has seen it (or else they don't care).

More likely, there aren't any linguists on Entmoot. Maybe on another forum.

I announce the articles on 4 or 5 forums (maybe a couple more), usually. But I know that some of the Elfling mailing list linguists have read my articles. And Tolkien Online usually mentions the articles. I think eventually the article will get noticed by the linguistic community.

I'm hoping that they'll agree with at least some of my conclusions about numbers. I'm pretty confident they won't have any major problems with "notinole".

It is on the Middle-earth Vault, and noone has responded there (I don't think). Personally, the discussion is a bit beyond me (Ranadwelt).

Anyhow, I have a question.

Why do you think JRR Tolkien used Roman numerals to represent '4' in Findegil's note of the Thain's Copy? It's in the Note on Shire Records.

Possibly the expense of reproducing Tengwar inside the primary text forbade that. But he may also have felt the Tengwar would have been too jarring for readers, and therefore "translated" them.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

A great deal of work has been done on Elvish numerals, and Helge has only built upon the work of others. Indeed, until I began looking into the possibility of constructing a numeral system (I was sure others had attempted to do this), I hadn't really given the matter much thought. Every time someone asked, "Are there tengwar for numerals?" I would quickly say, "No, not in any published text I have seen." Well, that's what you get for not looking at the published texts before answering questions. It occurred to me that there must, indeed, be at least one candidate for an example of Elvish numerals: Aragorn's letter to Sam. And when I checked Sauron Defeated I was pleased to read two examples of Elvish numberrs. After all, Aragorn mentions a specific date in the letter.

Helge once said he would respond to this article, but I don't think he ever got back to it. I haven't found anything new on the subject.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Inoldonil

It is on the Middle-earth Vault, and noone has responded there (I don't think). Personally, the discussion is a bit beyond me (Ranadwelt).

Anyhow, I have a question.

Why do you think JRR Tolkien used Roman numerals to represent '4' in Findegil's note of the Thain's Copy? It's in the Note on Shire Records.

Actually, now that I think about it, the "Note on the Shire Records" would have been presenting Findegil's note as a translation from the original work. Use of Roman numerals would convey a sense of ancientness.