Sauron... the Elf!

galadriel · 12-15-2002, 02:29 PM

I have in my possession an old, 1976 edition, pre-Silmarillion Tolkien guide called "The Tolkien Companion". Although charmingly written, the author has an unfortunately tendency to make unsupported assumptions and, I sometimes suspect, fabricate information entirely. I thought I'd share some of the more amusing mistakes with you.

Quote:

Lorien: the oldest of all names for the Golden Wood. It is a Silvan (i.e. Wood-elven) word, and its original meaning has not been recorded.)

Actually Lorien is actually the most recently created name for the Golden Wood, is Quenya, not Silvan, and means "dream".

Quote:

Gondolin is described as the 'Hidden City,' and its fall evidently pre-dates that of Nargothrond; therefore, one may assume that the hill of Gondolin was an outpost in enemy held lands.

I'm trying to see the logic here... but I just can't.

Quote:

Finwe: The House of Finarphir; a royal Line of the Noldor begun with Finarphir of Eldamar, far back in the Elder Days. The Finwe were the only Elves of any sort to possess, as a hereditary trait, shining golden hair.

This would be almost forgivable if Thranduil wasn't blond... and if all of the Vanyar weren't blond... and if Finwe, who is a person, not a house, wasn't dark-haired!

Quote:

House of Turin: The Second House of the Edain

I'm not sure where the author got the idea to call the families of the Edain "First", "Second", etc. At any rate, what made him think that Turin, whose sole offspring is the unborn child of Niniel, had a House of his own, is beyond me.

Quote:

...it seems not unlikely that Turgon was the heir of Feanor of the Noldor; at all events, many Elves of Feanor's House continued to dwell in Gondolin during the War of the Great Jewels....

Again, I completely fail to see where this idea came from.

Many of these inaccuracies are partially understandable, even if they are gross misassumptions, not just misinterpretations. But this one really gets me:

Quote:

...it may therefore be hazarded that [Sauron] was in origin one - and probably the greatest - of those High-elves suborned to Morgoth's purpose.

I always suspected Sauron had pointy ears!

Curunír · 12-15-2002, 03:48 PM

I have also that book. Written by JEA Tyler, isn't it? Still I find it a good book, and a useful encyclopedia. But you've right! It's in there!

Wayfarer · 12-15-2002, 04:21 PM

I believe that is, as my good friend ngolondil calls it, 'Day Crap'.

Tar-Elenion · 12-15-2002, 05:06 PM

Hindsight is 20-20.
The errors are attributable to the fact that Tyler was writing before the publication of The Silmarillion. His later 'New Tolkien Companion' is much better and more accurate.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-15-2002, 08:25 PM

Foster is better.

galadriel · 12-15-2002, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Hindsight is 20-20.
The errors are attributable to the fact that Tyler was writing before the publication of The Silmarillion. His later 'New Tolkien Companion' is much better and more accurate.

I agree; mistakes were inevitable. But an Elven Sauron... that's just a little bit too much.

Lollypopgurl · 12-16-2002, 06:23 PM

Sauron, an elf???? LOL!!!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-16-2002, 07:54 PM

When Sauron appeared as Annatar in the Second Age, he was in fair form, but what was he?

Ñólendil · 12-16-2002, 08:00 PM

I think even in that time he was taller than any Man or Elf could be. I seem to remember him posing as a Maia Incarnate, faithful to Aulë.

L@ur@y Elven Warrior · 12-21-2002, 11:46 AM

Sauron is not an Elf

Falagar · 12-21-2002, 11:54 AM

Hey, how can you know he wasn't an Elf? Have you ever met him?

Lanelf · 12-23-2002, 01:13 AM

Oo! it's a scandal - who WERE Sauron's parents?

Lanelf.

Dolenloteiel · 12-23-2002, 04:17 PM

LOL Lanelf, and that brings up the question, What is Sauron anyway?

Falagar · 12-23-2002, 04:20 PM

A spoiled child.

Dolenloteiel · 12-23-2002, 04:22 PM

LOL, can you imagine? *Waaa! I wanna orc to pway wif!! WAAA*

"It's ok honey, here's one, now don't roast him in the fire, sweetie, there's a good boy" LOL

Nilore · 12-27-2002, 07:04 AM

Sauron is a maia isn't he?

Sminty_Smeagol · 12-27-2002, 09:00 AM

YESsSss Sauron is a Maia... which brings rise to another question... Aren't the Istari Maiar too? So, would Gandalf be on equal terms with Sauron?

Curunír · 12-27-2002, 09:53 AM

The Istari are indeed Maiar too. But there are gradations. Gandalf can never be so powerful as Sauron, because of the gradations. Did you now Balrogs are Maiar too?
Argh! My English!

DraztiK · 12-27-2002, 02:31 PM

yes, I knew that, but I'm pretty sure there are people who don't

(ik zien da gij uit het Belgishe gedeelte van Isengard komt. Vloms of Fransoos?)

Lanelf · 12-28-2002, 05:43 AM

Sauron at least *was* a Maia, before he went evil. After that I think they don't call him that, but yes, he was one.
Yes, Gandalf's one too - he's meant to be the wisest of all Maiar, but Sauron might be the most powerful or something. Who knows... but Sauron definitely can't be the most intelligent! What sort of idiot makes a ring and binds their life force to it? Rule number I-forget-which: I will not create any weapon which can be used for my downfall.
Love the Evil Overlord List!
Lanelf.

12-15-2002, 03:48 PM	#2
Curunír Enting Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: iepe kriepe friepe liepe Posts: 95	I have also that book. Written by JEA Tyler, isn't it? Still I find it a good book, and a useful encyclopedia. But you've right! It's in there! __________________ Innie winnie frimmie zillie hoele kroele froele troele ape krape rape zape ulle frulle kulle a cup of milk huy!

12-15-2002, 04:21 PM	#3
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I believe that is, as my good friend ngolondil calls it, 'Day Crap'. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-15-2002, 05:06 PM	#4
Tar-Elenion Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 71	Hindsight is 20-20. The errors are attributable to the fact that Tyler was writing before the publication of The Silmarillion. His later 'New Tolkien Companion' is much better and more accurate. __________________ Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.

12-15-2002, 08:25 PM	#5
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Foster is better. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-16-2002, 06:23 PM	#7
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Sauron, an elf???? LOL!!! __________________ a violinist...

12-16-2002, 07:54 PM	#8
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	When Sauron appeared as Annatar in the Second Age, he was in fair form, but what was he? __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-16-2002, 08:00 PM	#9
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think even in that time he was taller than any Man or Elf could be. I seem to remember him posing as a Maia Incarnate, faithful to Aulë. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-21-2002, 11:46 AM	#10
L@ur@y Elven Warrior Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Halkirk Posts: 208	Sauron is not an Elf

12-21-2002, 11:54 AM	#11
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Hey, how can you know he wasn't an Elf? Have you ever met him? __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-23-2002, 01:13 AM	#12
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Oo! it's a scandal - who WERE Sauron's parents? Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

12-23-2002, 04:17 PM	#13
Dolenloteiel I elenfea Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO) Posts: 556	LOL Lanelf, and that brings up the question, What is Sauron anyway? __________________ "Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan **************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com **************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again!

12-23-2002, 04:20 PM	#14
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	A spoiled child. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-23-2002, 04:22 PM	#15
Dolenloteiel I elenfea Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO) Posts: 556	LOL, can you imagine? Waaa! I wanna orc to pway wif!! WAAA "It's ok honey, here's one, now don't roast him in the fire, sweetie, there's a good boy" LOL __________________ "Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan **************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com **************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again!

12-27-2002, 07:04 AM	#16
Nilore Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am every where and I am no where, I am everyone and I am no-one! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Posts: 319	Sauron is a maia isn't he? __________________ UZG-BURGÛLU-OB GHASHANUM GHASHNUM-OB MOR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Raise the Phial of Galadriel and let the Star Glass of Lothlorian cast out the Darkness of Shelob's Lair. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurholth! There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bhûl latu dûmp Accept Your DOOM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DIE MERE MORTALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh NO I AM A MERE MORTAL AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHH Stop the NUKE Stop the NUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nilore writes last will and testament. Gets on knees And begs God for Mercy. Realizes He's already dead Flies up to heaven ( By the power of Red Bull) and lives happily ever after. THE END ( It's a MINI adventure) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12-27-2002, 09:00 AM	#17
Sminty_Smeagol Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In a house Posts: 1,071	YESsSss Sauron is a Maia... which brings rise to another question... Aren't the Istari Maiar too? So, would Gandalf be on equal terms with Sauron?

12-27-2002, 09:53 AM	#18
Curunír Enting Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: iepe kriepe friepe liepe Posts: 95	The Istari are indeed Maiar too. But there are gradations. Gandalf can never be so powerful as Sauron, because of the gradations. Did you now Balrogs are Maiar too? Argh! My English! __________________ Innie winnie frimmie zillie hoele kroele froele troele ape krape rape zape ulle frulle kulle a cup of milk huy!

12-27-2002, 02:31 PM	#19
DraztiK Enting Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mol, Belgium Posts: 94	yes, I knew that, but I'm pretty sure there are people who don't (ik zien da gij uit het Belgishe gedeelte van Isengard komt. Vloms of Fransoos?) __________________ The name's DraztiK, but those whose name isn't totally blasted into Oblivion yet may call me DraZ... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Our Armies in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales Our Brothers in Belgium, Holland and France will not fail. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, back to the Glory of Germany! ~Manowar - Blood of the Kings~

12-28-2002, 05:43 AM	#20
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Sauron at least was a Maia, before he went evil. After that I think they don't call him that, but yes, he was one. Yes, Gandalf's one too - he's meant to be the wisest of all Maiar, but Sauron might be the most powerful or something. Who knows... but Sauron definitely can't be the most intelligent! What sort of idiot makes a ring and binds their life force to it? Rule number I-forget-which: I will not create any weapon which can be used for my downfall. Love the Evil Overlord List! Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

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