Abortion

So what do you think about it?

Why are you bringing up this subject which is an emotional one and likely only to make people angry? I know what I think about it but feel it is pointless to discuss it, because most people have their minds made up and are not going to change their minds just by discussing it.

Well, this is a highly controversial issue. I'll leave it open for the time being, but if it turns into a flame war it will have to be closed, obviously. Just remember to keep a civil tone while posting.

I personally believe that a woman should have a right to choose what she wants and that it's not the government's place to tell her that she can't control her own body.

I'll see if this can be discussed rationally and without insults.

Eruve...well said.

Ben...likewise.

NO.

Whether that is a response to the question, or merely in defiance to the existence of this thread itself, I shall leave up to your own interpretation.

I agree with ben.

But (well, yes, there had to be a " but" ) I admit I have a problem concerning the maximum amount of weeks into pregnancy for which abortion could be allowed.
The present legal amount of weeks is based (i think) on the maximum one can go without harming the pregnant woman.
But what if (uhhhg... " what if"'s can be such pain in the arse!) medical technology allows in the future abortions up until, say, the 8th month? Or 8 and half?

I encourage pro-choicers (like me) to debate on this.

I'm pro-choice, too. It's up to the woman what she wants to do, not the government. I think you'll find in this poll, though, that the younger half of Entmoot is liable to be more liberal than the older half, at least in general.

I don't think that the line is drawn between young and old, as much as it is drawn between religious beliefs.


Gee, such a heavy topic for a board created to discuss the wonderful world of make-believe.

Well, I didn't mean to cause a flame, and I am pretty sure this topic would not cause one. There have probably been other controversial issues at Entmoot, but none have ever caused a flame war. A certain level of respect for other people's opinion has always been maintained.

This topic has appeared in another bb without any problems, but that was a different type of bb, so maybe I should've been more careful. I do realize the seriousness of this topic might cause people to not post here, but that is all right. I think this sort of makes Entmoot a place with well-diversified topics. What other board has so many different topics? Entmoot includes, SW, Tolkien, movies, fantasy, a place to just talk, and now, a little bit of serious discussion.

Okay, now my view on aborition....

I see that the majority of you, like the other bb I mentioned before, are pro-choice. Well, I am not, so it will be a bit more difficult for me to give reasons for my position.

Probably, the main reason why I so strongly oppose abortion is because you are basically killing life. People say that babies in the womb are not humans, but they are simply wrong. In the beginning of pregnancy, all the traits of the baby are determined. All the baby needs to do is grow into the traits. And, because it has unique traits that can never be reproduced again, killing it would be killing a distinct individual human being. Is killing a baby who was very recently born right and legal? After all, it doesn't know anything. It's only potential because it has gone through puberty and fully developed.

Also, something annoying is when people say stuff like, “What about rape, incest, or when the mother’s life is in danger?” and some other rare case. Those are the exception, so that shouldn’t be part of the argument. When I talk about abortion, I mean the most common type.

And, no one should allow abortion because the mother might maim herself in the process of killing the baby. If the mother tries to kill a baby and maims herself, it might sound mean, but I think she deserves it. She injured herself in attempted murder.

There is no reason to kill a baby because people believe it will lead to a life of cruelty and abuse. A few years back, some prom mom person killed a baby shortly after birth. The baby would have most likely had a life abuse, but that would have been no excuse. She basically killed a human being, and abortion would be doing the same.

Another reason for abortion is because it is practical. That is the worst excuse of all. I am sure it is practical to do many things, but it is not right because it also practical to kill and steal.

Many women say they believe in the right to have a choice. They do have a choice. They can choose to remain abstinent, unless they want a baby. Sex is the process of reproducing, so people who do not want to reproduce, should not do it.

The next part might offend people, but I still included it because I thought it showed a very strong point.

Everyone here at the board had a mother and lived in the womb for several months. Obviously, your parents chose not have an abortion, but if they did, would your life be possible? No, it would not. When someone prevents your life from continuing, it is called murder. So, if your parents aborted you, would you think they murdered you? …..


I was going to make the last para the same color as backround so you would need to highlight ot read, but i didn't know how to. If one of the admins or mods want to, can you please do it for me.


post was not ment to offend anyone

also it took a while to write and didn't concentrate on proper english, so i am sure there are plenbty of grammer errors.

Thank you dmaul for your well detailed opinion.

Now, let me give here a partial reply.

Firstly, let me point out you misuse of the word "baby". A baby is a human that is at least born. But of course it is convenient to call a fetus a baby, since it gives abortion a more cruel face than it should. Especially when using in conjonction with the word "kill".
The pregnant woman bears an embryo, then a fetus.

Now, about your last paragraph that you think is a so strong argument. My mother (and probably most of this board's users') didn't decide not to have an abortion: she wasn't in a precarious situation, and I was wanted. So she had me. Abortion presents itself as a choice in grave and tense situations, not as a matter-of-fact-practical way as you try to describe.
My being alive cannot be an argument against the right of abortion by choice.

You go on saying: "When someone prevents your life from continuing, it is called murder." Please remember that murder implies two things: malicious intent and illegal killing. The woman who decides to have an abortion isn't malicious: she strongly feels incapable of going through with the pregnancy at this point in her life, for various reasons. And it is not illegal.

And about your claim that sex is the process of reproducing, so people who do not want to reproduce, should not do it. The hands are made primarily for grappling, holding, thouching and feeling; so one shouldn't play the piano? The feet are made for walking, so one shouldn't dance? You see, the function of sex is reproduction, as the function of the hand and the foot is to hold,etc... and walk respectively. But their usage can be more varied, and so is for sex. We human beings can express ourselves in so many creative forms that the function of our organs are transcended, and we do -oh- so much marvels with painting, singing and dancing, and... well, and the sex thing that has nothing to do with reproduction.

We are free and creative and beautifull.
Let's not be beaten down by archaic tyranical dogmas that were invented in a past when our ignorance was used against us and fear was used to shut off our songs.

But I digress...

I am quite saddened that the choice to abortion is viewed as a practical luxury. But again, this is a very good tactical choice of words on the part of the pro-lifers.

This is a subject that will forever be debated, even when we'll all be old-timers.

bmilder sumed up my opinion on this matter.

You can say whatever you want about how I worded things, but abortion is still killing. Fetus, embryo, baby- it really doesn't matter because everyone who read the post knew that I ment the human inside the womb.

Are fetuses and embryos human beings???If they aren't, what are they???ALIENS???

Isn't it illegal to kill humans???

Then, why is it legal to kill humans when they're not born yet?




Also, don't try to scare me with big bad words. I have full access to a dictionary:P

A spermatozoid successfully fecunds an ovum.
Then there is the first division: there are now two cells.

Are these two cells a human being?
If we were able to stop further divisions at that point, would you consider this as murder?
For "killing" those two cells, what would you want the legal punishment to be? Emprisonment? Death penalty? Hearing a Charlton Heston and Ronald Reagan duet?

This issue is what my American Heritage class last year called a "Culture War". Basically, there are two or more different "sides" who cannot reconcile their beliefs or come to any agreement because they have deeply held beliefs and values that are completely at odds. There is no way to fairly come to a solution that will satisfy anyone unless everyone changes to the same side.

The following is a glimpse into my "side", which is not intended to convince, offend, or argue, but to shed light on why I believe the way I do. I will state my beliefs as facts, which they are. (no relativism for me, sorry ) My religious beliefs are my entire life and define the meaning of my existence.

Human spirits have a pre-existence and live with God before they are born to receive a human body. The purpose of mortal life is for us to gain a body (we need a body to become like God, who has a perfect, physical, human-shaped body. The purpose of our existence is to become like God), be tested, learn, develop our potential, and have children and families. Procreation is the purpose of sex, to create bodies for spirits to live in, to bring them into this world to learn and be tested, to teach them and love them and help them along. It is not God's fault that people use this wonderful process for pleasure and persuasion, for he gave us our ability to choose so that we could learn and progress. There must be opposition in all things, but the purpose of our existence is to be happy. Even potential babies that would certainly have constant pain should be born, because every human soul has the right to life, and to make of it what they can. There is a lot of ugliness in this world, but there is infinite beauty as well, and learning experiences that spirits need to become perfect. I agree with dmaul that the woman's "choice" (excluding cases of rape, in which abortion is an acceptable option) has been made at the time of intercourse. I also believe that a fertilized egg contains the spirit of a person, and is a potential human being. This person has the right to experience mortality. If the woman would very likely die, or if there is a case of rape or incest, abortion can be considered, but it should still not be easy or convenient. The woman and other people involved should have counseling and take careful thought before this step is taken.

I hope you can look at this with an open heart and see that the motivation for this opinion is love and a religion that I cannot deny.

I respect your personal choice, based on your personal religion.

What bmilder (i think) put forward is that that respect should be mutual, thus implying that we should respect the pregnant woman's choice, a choice based on her beliefs, a choice protected by a law of mutual respect. You are convinced of your beliefs, but there are other opinions and beliefs.

We just can't live today in an old testament-like society where sex for pleasure is condemned by death; where a woman lying about her virginity to get married can be put to death by law.
The God of the judeo-christian bible even ordered children to be put to death, written black-on-white in that book. And those were not just foetuses, but born children, unmistakenly human beings.

So, isn't God himself a murderer?

well, I also agree pretty much with Ben, but i also overlap onto Jae's side. There are alternatives to abortion. If you have sex and do not mean to reproduce, that is why condoms were created. If you use one, you will not reproduce (unless it rips or something). But if its too late to use a condom, you can always wait for the child to be born and give it up for adoption, which was usually the alternative before abortion was created. Otherwise, I think it is the ladies choice on whether to have an abortion or not.

The reason there are "sides" in this issue: for and against, are for the passing of laws that would dictate what a women can do and what she cannot. The pro-life side wants the laws passed, the pro-choice side wants to prevent those laws from being enacted. The danger of passing anti-abortion laws is that women who become pregnant through rape or incest, or women whose pregnancy is threatening their lives, will not have a choice. You can't pass a law that includes one and excludes another. Sure you can say that the law can be tailored to exclude rape victims, etc., but how will that determination be made? You will have women who have decided that they want an abortion saying that they were raped, or whatever, just to get one. Furthermore, once a persons rights are taken away, there is no turning back. If it proves to be a bad law, what are the chances that the law will be reversed? Absolutely none.

And I'm not even going to go into the economic repercussions of passing such a law......

Abortion is not going to be made illegal any time soon, probably. Currently, on the Supreme Court, 6 justices would not overturn Roe vs. Wade and 3 would. George W. Bush has promised to appoint pro-life judges and Gore pro-choice, but even if Bush is elected, he would just thin the margin in all likelihood. The official Republican platform is currently for an end to abortion, no exceptions, and even most normal pro-life people agree that there must be some exceptions.

How do you know the official republican plattform??
They know that completely outlawing abortion will make them loose votes. You seem to be trying to indirectly say that repupblicans are evil and they have absolutely no compassion for women in difficult situations to try to make ppl have a negative opinion of the republican party.

I get my information from a source called CNN.com. You may have heard of it

Click here to read about the fight about the Republican anti abortion plank. That article is from March.

An article that states it more explicitly can be found here. It's also a CNN story, but it's a summary of political events. Scroll down until you see the heading that says "Bauer warns Bush not to choose pro-choice running mate." Here's an excerpt: Since 1976, a few years after the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision, the Republican platform has called for outlawing abortion, even in cases of rape and incest.

(emphasis added)

Now as you see, the more moderate Republicans are at odds with the Religious Right and extreme elements of the party, but as a Republican, it seems you have to pander to the religious conservatives if you want to win your party over. (See Bush's move to the right to win the South Carolina primary.)