An easier, less costly way to get the Ring to Oroduin...

[IronParrot]

At Rivendell, they should have decided to call up the Eagles.

Eagles bear Frodo, etc. to Mount Doom.

Frodo chucks the Ring in.

End of story

[Ñólendil]

Except there's the whole problem of secrecy being thrown out the window and Sauron's servants destroying all the Nine Walkers (or Flyers) before you can say 'bad idea', not to mention Eagles getting tired after a few thousand miles.

[emplynx]

I have often thought about this...
but,
Getting killed, maybe. Tiring, no. It was only about 700 miles from Rivendell to Mt. Doom, the eagles could do it easily.

[webwizard333]

Two Reasons that couldn't happen:

1. Tolkien wanted a good story with lots of excitmement, adventure, lessons, . . .
2. Wouldn't the Eagles be capable of corruption from the ring too?

[Comic Book Guy]

Not to mention that the Great Eye would have the eagles, the Weight of the ring would have been too great for the eagles to carry and the eagles can't just be called up upon to deal with the problems of other people.

[easterlinge]

A lesser writer (like Robert Jordan) would have had them discover a magic portal in Minas Morgul and teleport them to Mt. Doom. Or maybe Frodo and Sam get captured, took to Barar-dur, escape, discover a magic portal somewhere in the Dark Tower, and teleport to Orodruin.

I just don't like the idea of magical teleportation in fantasy. Too easy.

[Michael Martinez]

The biggest problem with all Eagle theories is that they don't take into consideration the fact that the Council of Elrond was not in a position to make any plans based on availability of resources not represented in Rivendell. They had to go forth with what they had, and they didn't have any Eagles.

And, on top of that, since Frodo proved incapable of destroying the Ring anyway, whatever poor Eagle got saddled with him would eventually have had to dump him off its back.

[Gimly]

It's impossible because:

1)No eagle, even Great Eye, can survive all that it would get for getting even close to Mordor, not to mention flying over it. As it was said at the meeting in Rivendell (not a quote though)- No one can beat Sauron at his own land.

2)The eagles won't agree to do such, only, maybe, if Radagast the Brown would ask them to. And to contact him and ask for his help would take the time they didn't have.

3)There would be no secrets with the eagles. Sauron's Eye would easily locate them, and then, BOOM! Middle Earth is conquered by the dark powers!

4)It would ruin the greatest story ever written!

[andustar]

damn, there was a whole HOF over at TOR.N about this a while ago... If I could just find it... hang on a second... if anyone wants to help me find it go here please... thanks. It may have been just part of a general Tolkien Q&A... but I swear they had a long discussion about it. If you can bear chat logs, that is, which I have only been able to tolerate after getting into mbs

[andustar]

okay, I found it, but as it's not the whole log, should I post it here? attach it? or what?

.... I'll... post it here. but WARNING it's going to be long, and confusing. Sorry people, but it IS a chat log. People talk in half-sentances or by the time they've finished typing no one knows what they're talking about

here goes. My next post then. The URL for the chat log is
http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/...gs/012200.html
and incidentaly, I only went to two of these chat things (under another name, I didn't have andustar then!) and this is the one I met Tater at who invited me to entmoot so this has historic significance, people! I would never have heard of entmoot otherwise!

[andustar]

Here it is. And I still swear there was a WHOLE HOF on this, but I never went to it... oh well, good luck finding it.

here it is. I warned you.

<Elendil_> Tom Bombadil and Gwahir could've done it!!!
<Gandalf> very nice point pallando!
<Pallando> thanks
<Gandalf> maybe
<Eledhwen> get rid of the ring?
<Gandalf> maybe they wouldnt though
<Gandalf> they could have but just wouldnt
<Elendil_> Wouldn't yes
<Eledhwen> Bombadil didn't care
<Gandalf> i dont think they would
<Elendil_> but they had the ability
<Gandalf> yes
<Gandalf> i believe so
<Eledhwen> rings were not important to him
<Elendil_> between them
<Gandalf> but they were following the rules in gwaihirs case
<Gandalf> tom i think just didnt care
<Elendil_> I still think it's crazy Gwahir wasn't used for the quest
<Eledhwen> rules?
<Gandalf> there is a reason elendil
<cirdan> but how much did the maiar remember when they came to ME, pallando? tolkein said there was much they had to relearn
<Gandalf> you have to read between the lines to see it though
<Pallando> good point
<Gandalf> but gwaihir wouldnt have done it
<Eledhwen> how much did the ring concern animals and birds?
<Elendil_> I know. I was merely musing upon their ability
<Gandalf> yeah
<Gandalf> ive thought that before elendil
<Palpatine> if they had used Gwaihir Sauron would have known when and where they were coming
<Elendil_> Woudln't have made for such a good story anyhoo!!
<Gandalf> yeah
<Palpatine> remember the idea was to travel in secret
<cirdan> the eagles are special
<Gandalf> but tolkien even covered that little detail
<Gandalf> tolkien was amazing
<Pallando> But let's go simplistic style. You could tell Gandalf knew what was going to happen to Bilbo.
<Frode> Elendil: I think that would 'lessen' the free peoples, besides Gwaihir might have been spotted and killed by Sauron
<Pallando> In the Hobbit.
<Elendil_> Yes, true Ford
<Elendil_> Frode I mean
<Palpatine> Frode: or at least have given them away
<Gandalf> maybe
<Frode> nothing could avoid detection by Sauron I think
<Gandalf> but at that time the nazgul were on horses...no match for the eagles
<Palpatine> Gwaihir had already played his part by saving Gandalf
<Frode> in the end
<Elendil_> Ok, lets go further back...
<Gandalf> he could have taken frodo right to mt. doom and done it
<Gandalf> that easy
<Elendil_> now, I haven't read The Hobbit in ages, but/...
<Gandalf> but he would have done it
<Eledhwen> but boring!
<Gandalf> wouldnt
<Palpatine> Gan: I don't think it would have worked
<Frode> I mean that Sauron would have killed Gwaihir personally
<Gandalf> i know it wouldnt have
<Elendil_> Why DID Gan choose Bilbo???
<Eledhwen> how, Frode?
<Gandalf> he didnt elendil
<Gandalf> the ring did
<Pallando> my point above
<Frode> Eledwhen: when he can errupt volcanoes and direct the weather I think this is a small feat
<Eledhwen> Doesn't Elendil mean when he banged on Bilbo's door?
<Pallando> But Gandalf chose Bilbo for the quest
<Elendil_> Yes, but - that can be said of the entire scenario!
<Palpatine> because he liked Hobbits. he had more faith in them than all of Middle Earth
<Palpatine> he knew they were made of strong stuff
<Elendil_> Yes Eled!
<Eledhwen> where does he erupt volcanoes?
<Gandalf> on the eagles thing: the eagles were also known as the "eagles of manwe"
<Gandalf> manwe wouldnt have allowed
<Eledhwen> or direct weather?
<Gandalf> the ring was left up to men
<Frode> Eledwhen: the great signal
<Gandalf> the valar had already sent aid via the istari
<Eledhwen> now I'm lost!
<Gandalf> thats all they would get


and you shoulf thank me for putting all the [b] tags in!

actually, on reading it over again, I can promise you there was another, more serious one... damn, where is it?

[Michael Martinez]

There are a lot of assumptions and erroneous statements in that exchange.

[IronParrot]

Heh, I actually started this thread as a joke... but hey, the Eagles DO appear pretty conveniently sometimes, don't they?

[Kirinki54]

Well Iron Eagle... Sorry, Iron Parrot... it might have been a joke, but the issue is as interesting as many other WHAT-IFs...

I think another reason might have been that the eagles had a special bond to Manwe. And the Valar had chosen (or been imposed by Eru Iluvatar) the Istari as their strategy for interfering with the Sauron problem. Having the eagles giving to much direct help might have been too much of a deus ex machina.

[Michael Martinez]

Kirinki54, that was very well put.

[Kevin McIntyre]

of course Tolkien has been called the king of



deus ex machina. However this goes along with his view that God (Eru) does play a part in the matters of the world.

______________________________________________
"Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought."

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre
of course Tolkien has been called the king of deus ex machina. However this goes along with his view that God (Eru) does play a part in the matters of the world.

Was Tolkien called that? Would be interesting to know by whom?

Anyway I am certain you are right. I have often pondered that the existence of the Hobbits and their keeping of the Ring was some of Eru´s mayor trump cards.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez
Kirinki54, that was very well put.

Why thank you, Elven Loremaster!

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


Was Tolkien called that? Would be interesting to know by whom?

Anyway I am certain you are right. I have often pondered that the existence of the Hobbits and their keeping of the Ring was some of Eru´s mayor trump cards.

not sure were I read that, but it was a criticism and not a compliment.

[Michael Martinez]

Tolkien was very aware of his use of deus ex machina devices, such as the eagles. He felt the eagles should not be used more than he did use them precisely for that reason. I don't know if he has been called the king of DEM but it is certainly an apt description of some of his literary style. I see how it could be used as both an insult and a compliment.

Fortuitous events and encounters are a staple of the Tolkien literary diet. That doesn't mean they are necessarily bad, but some people will appreciate them better than others.