10-05-2002, 03:35 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Vala meetings
In the time of LotR, which of the characters we know of had ever met a Vala?
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'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.' |
10-05-2002, 03:40 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Cirdan... there are lots. Radagast too, of course.
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10-05-2002, 03:43 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Gandalf
Galadriel possibly Glorfindel maybe Gildor Inglorin Cirdan might have met Ulmo Sauron The Balrog Saruman Radagast The Blue Wizards That's all I can think of right now.
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10-05-2002, 03:46 PM | #4 |
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Cirdan probably met Orome too.
Glorgindel? oh, yeah, right. Gildor? neh... maybe Smaug too? |
10-05-2002, 04:00 PM | #5 | |
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10-05-2002, 04:02 PM | #6 |
AngAdan
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Almost all the Caliquendi, High Elves (such as Gildor's company) would have met a Vala when they were in Aman for some thousands of years. Cirdan likely would have met Ulmo and any that were the Host of the west that defeated Morgoth, like Orome and Tulkas, as would have other Moriquendi (few, according to SIL) that were in the host or met with it after the war. Any of the Maiar, Like the wizards, Sauron, balrog, Bombadil, would have. Maybe Goldberry is Maiar. Shelob may have encountered on, but that is unlikely, since she likely would have been slain.
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 10-06-2002 at 12:54 PM. |
10-06-2002, 06:15 AM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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Bombadil could be a maia, but almost no one knew in his life that... (except Tolkien). Elrond didn't see a vala until he went to Aman. Cirdan probably saw Orome in the beginning of the days, and could be he saw Ulmo too.
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10-06-2002, 01:55 PM | #8 | |
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10-06-2002, 02:03 PM | #9 |
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Malkor was a vala, but when he started to do evil the other valar deposed him from the race (is it the right word?). Smaug defenately didn't saw Malkor when he was a vala.
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10-06-2002, 04:54 PM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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What about the Eagles of Manwe? How do you think they kept in contact?
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'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.' |
10-06-2002, 05:38 PM | #11 | |
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10-06-2002, 07:47 PM | #12 |
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It's not said anywhere explicitly, but Smaug was too young to have evern come in contact with Melkor because Melkor had long since been thrown out of the world.
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10-07-2002, 03:02 AM | #13 | ||
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Quote:
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'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.' |
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10-07-2002, 07:17 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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Melkor wasn't a vala before he made the first dragon - therefore Smaug can't see him as a vala.
The eagles probably talked to valar too. |
10-07-2002, 07:38 AM | #15 | |
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10-07-2002, 08:50 AM | #16 |
AngAdan
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Smaug was a young adult dragon thousands of years after Morgoth was deposed, dragons come to full adulthood in a few hundred years. Smaug would have been born/hatched/whatever thousands of years after Morgoths 3rd exile.
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10-07-2002, 04:12 PM | #17 | |
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10-07-2002, 04:51 PM | #18 |
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Mmm, I'm still not convinced. Sure, the other Valar can say they cast him out of their order but in my view that doesn't make him un-Vala. As for Smaug I still think it's possible that he was around at the time of the first age. Perhaps only as a youngling, but still.
I'm just being stubborn here, ain't I?
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10-07-2002, 06:39 PM | #19 | |
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In all seriousnes, however, Tolkien does mention somewhere that Smaug was hatched in the 3rd age. I'm looking for this passage right now, and I'll quote it when I find it.
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10-07-2002, 07:16 PM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Here's a list of all I can think of, listing only those characters specifically given a name, those marked with stars are possible, but we don't know:
1. Gandalf 2. Gildor * 3. Tom Bombadil (Maia or not, may have met a Vala at some point) 4. Goldberry (see above) 3. Glorfindel 4. Elrond * (may have saw Orome or Tulkas in War of Wrath) 5. Erestor 6. Galdor * (may have been Galdor of Gondolin, who in turn may have been born in Valinor) 7. Radagast 8. Saruman 9. The Balrog of Mória 10. Galadriel 11. Sauron 12. CÃ*rdan I wonder about Elrond. He may have had a glimpse of a Vala in Beleriand before the War of Wrath. Elrond was being raised by Maglor, and Maglor stuck around. What makes me wonder in the first place is that Elrond says in his Council that the banners of the War of the Last Alliance reminded him of those seen in the War of Wrath. Perhaps as a child he saw mighty Tulkas striding ahead of an army, or at the side of Eönwë, or walking with Nahar, full of laughter as The King Forester brandished his spear.
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