The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 6

[brownjenkins]

Lothlórien

The chapter opens with the Fellowship, now lead by Aragorn, escaping Moria and orcish pursuit. The ranger mourns the loss of Gandalf, but quickly reminds the party that they must concentrate on finding safe haven before night falls, saving tears and remembrance for a more opportune moment.

They make there way quickly towards Lothlórien, land of Legolas' kindred elves, with a momentary stop by Gimli, Frodo and Sam at Mirrormere, the legendary pool associated with Durin and the dwarvish crown. They do not see their shadows in the reflection from the pool, a reflection which also shows stars in the sky when we know that it is daytime above. Any speculation on this "magical" pool, or Gimli's comments about Durin and his crown?

After travelling some miles from the gates of Moria, they stop so that Aragorn can tend to the wounded. We see Frodo reluctant to reveal his mithril coat to the rest of the fellowship. Is this just modesty, or is there some other reason for him to attempt to keep it under wraps?

Approaching the border of Lothlórien, Boromir expresses his misgivings about the "perilous" wood, to which Aragorn replies that "only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them." It is obvious that the ranger has been here previously, but does he also suspect Boromir's intentions towards the ring? Is it a veiled warning?

The fellowship cross Nimrodel and Legolas sings the song of the elven maid for which it is named. A tragic tale of love lost, due in part to the departure of elves into the West. Legolas alludes to the fact that the awakening of the balrog in Moria was a factor in their departure, and possible a bone of contention between the elves of Lothlórien and the dwarves. Is this a fair argument on the part of either race?

As night falls, looking for shelter among the treetops, they come across the elves of the wood, lead by Haldir of the Galadhrim. They are wary, but having received messages from Elrond, and seeing Legolas among them, they are willing to trust the newcomers to their wood. (Note: it was about two months between the Council of Elrond and the departure of the Fellowship, which explains the possibility of advance notification) Here, once again, we also here reference to the "Dark Days" and the severe mistrust between elves and dwarves.

The Fellowship stays the night in the tree with the elves, during which many orcs from Moria pass below the tree shelter, and Frodo once again notices the pale-eyed creature that has been following since their trip under the Misty Mountains. In the morning, the elves lead on, forcing the Fellowship to ford a large stream by way of a makeshift rope-bridge. After crossing they ask for Gimli to be blindfolded, as it is a law in their land. Gimli is offended by this lack of trust, but Aragorn attempts to soften the blow by saying that they will all accept blindfolds, to which Legolas gives equal offense.

Haldir of the Galadrim leads them onward blindfolded and speaks some of the current state of the position of Lothlórien between many evils, Sauron, Saruman and the south of Mirkwood. Finally they reach Cerin Amroth, the heart of Elvendom in Middle-Earth. Aragon takes Frodo to the top of this beautiful hill to take in the surrondings, and Tolkien leaves us with the interesting comment that the ranger "came (there) never again as a living man"

[Beren3000]

Great intro, bj!
It seems I missed a lot by not taking part in the discussion on the previous chapter

Anyway:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Is this just modesty, or is there some other reason for him to attempt to keep it under wraps?

I think it was choice B. He probably feared that such an object of great value would have a Ring-like effect on the Fellowship if they saw it. I think this is what Bilbo had in mind too when he told Frodo to wear it under his clothes.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

It is obvious that the ranger has been here previously, but does he also suspect Boromir's intentions towards the ring? Is it a veiled warning?

Interesting way to look at it. I always thought of this statement as ironic: Aragorn is saying: we needen't fear Lothlorien, only those who bring evil need fear it. But aren't they actually bringing the ultimate evil in ME to Lothlorien? I think of this as rather a hint at Galadriel's later behavior ("A Queen, more terrible than the Morning and the Night, etc...")

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Is this a fair argument on the part of either race?

Quite possibly, but I don't think Legolas would've said it under normal circumstances: he probably had a "bone to pick" as you put it, with Moria after the death of Gandalf there. I don't think he intended it as an insult to the whole dwarf-race.

[Artanis]

Thanks bj!

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Any speculation on this "magical" pool, or Gimli's comments about Durin and his crown?

Speculations ... I am jumping ahead here, but I think there may exist a parallell between the Kheled-zâram and Galadriel's mirror. Both is offering visions to people who look into it. There lies a special power in water ... Ulmo ...

I think it says a lot on how important the pool is for Dwarves that Gimli just has to take this sidetrip to look into the Mirrormere, even if they are fleeing from grave peril and time is short. Also it is nice to see that he asks, or rather commands, Frodo to come with him. The friendship between Glóin and Bilbo continues into the 'next generation'. And Sam again follows unbidden, as the faithful servant and guard that he is.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

It is obvious that the ranger has been here previously, but does he also suspect Boromir's intentions towards the ring? Is it a veiled warning?

I think it is a warning to all of them, and not even veiled. Beren is right, they are after all bringing the most evil thing in Middle-Earth with them. Aragorn is right when he says that Lóthlorien is perilous, but it is another sort of peril than what Boromir expects, than what any of them expect, who has not been there before.

An observation about Nimrodel: Here again we hear about Legolas' ear for voices in the nature, the music of the waterfall. But this time Frodo is also able to hear it, another sign I think of how the Ring, and maybe the wound of the Morgul-knife, is affecting him.

And how come Legolas is unable to remember the whole song of Nimrodel? Elves do not forget things easily, and songs least of all.

More later ... must do some work ...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro Brownie.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

With a momentary stop by Gimli, Frodo and Sam at Mirrormere, the legendary pool associated with Durin and the dwarvish crown. They do not see their shadows in the reflection from the pool, a reflection which also shows stars in the sky when we know that it is daytime above. Any speculation on this "magical" pool, or Gimli's comments about Durin and his crown?

As Artanis said it is interesting that Sam follows unbidden as he does later on in the chapter, and both times he is not spoken to or really noticed. Here this mean everyone else has already come to terms with Sam's relationship with Frodo, but with the elves there is no time for that as they have only met the Company a few minutes ago.

We see Frodo reluctant to reveal his mithril coat to the rest of the fellowship. Is this just modesty, or is there some other reason for him to attempt to keep it under wraps?

I think it is the second. I agree with what Beren said but I also think that he knows that the Rings is a perilous thing so if any one from the Fellowship was so overcome by the Ring's power to try and take it from him he would have a defence that was unknown to them.

Approaching the border of Lothlórien, Boromir expresses his misgivings about the "perilous" wood, to which Aragorn replies that "only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them." It is obvious that the ranger has been here previously, but does he also suspect Boromir's intentions towards the ring? Is it a veiled warning?

I've always wandered at this part because, as Beren and Artanis have said, they are bringing the most perilous in ME into Lothlorien.

Finally they reach Cerin Amroth, the heart of Elvendom in Middle-Earth. Aragon takes Frodo to the top of this beautiful hill to take in the surrondings, and Tolkien leaves us with the interesting comment that the ranger "came (there) never again as a living man"

I've always loved that part of the chapter. It shows Aragorn in the same light as it showed him in Rivendell. As a young lord, tall and fair.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Thanks bj!
Speculations ... I am jumping ahead here, but I think there may exist a parallell between the Kheled-zâram and Galadriel's mirror. Both is offering visions to people who look into it. There lies a special power in water ... Ulmo ...

i had some interesting thoughts last night on the ride home about mirrormere, though completely speculative on my part... i believe this has always been the spot where the dwarven race was believed to have "awoken"... and their first king was Durin, who supposedly would reappear throughout dwarven history

maybe the pool, instead of reflecting the current world is somewhat of a "shapshot" of the time when Durin first looked into it. A time before the sun and the moon, which explains only stars in the sky

and on the "crown" reference, maybe Gimli was not speaking of a physical crown, but of the idea that only Durin's reflection would show in the pool, identifying him as the heir to the dwarven crown

[Artanis]

I like your thoughts very much bj.

Just a little thing that I find funny:

`Whatever it may be,' said Pippin, `they will be marvellous trees indeed if they can offer any rest at night, except to birds. I cannot sleep on a perch! '
'Then dig a hole in the ground,' said Legolas, `if that is more after the fashion of your kind. But you must dig swift and deep, if you wish to hide from Orcs.'

I've always found this to be rather amusing. Legolas makes fun of Pip and Hobbits in general for their fashion of living under the ground. And that comes from one whose father has his abode in a cave.

[Durin1]

[QUOTE=brownjenkins]i had some interesting thoughts last night on the ride home about mirrormere, though completely speculative on my part... i believe this has always been the spot where the dwarven race was believed to have "awoken"... and their first king was Durin, who supposedly would reappear throughout dwarven history/QUOTE]

Actually Durin is said to have awoken far to the North, on Mount Gundabad, I believe. He travelled south (alone) and there found Mirromere, taking the view as a sign that this would be where he set his Kingdom.

[Artanis]

He sprang lightly up from the ground and caught a branch that grew from the trunk high above his head. But even as he swung there for a moment, a voice spoke suddenly from the tree-shadows above him.
`Daro!' it said in commanding tone, and Legolas dropped back to earth in surprise and fear. He shrank against the bole of the tree.
'Stand still! ' he whispered to the others. `Do not move or speak! '

Anyone but me who find it strange that Legolas is afraid here? So he's a Silvan Elf from Mirkwood, a rural place compared to Lórien, but at least the language should have made it clear to him that Haldir and co. are Elves, and Elves in a tree should not have come as a surprise to him.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Anyone but me who find it strange that Legolas is afraid here? So he's a Silvan Elf from Mirkwood, a rural place compared to Lórien, but at least the language should have made it clear to him that Haldir and co. are Elves, and Elves in a tree should not have come as a surprise to him.

legolas is a wimp

it is interesting the way it is written... one would assume that with legolas' age, heritage and proximity, he would certainly have visited lórien in the past, probably many times... it wasn't that far away

[The Gaffer]

Nice work, once again, BJ.

came (there) never again as a living man

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I've always loved that part of the chapter. It shows Aragorn in the same light as it showed him in Rivendell. As a young lord, tall and fair.

Me too. It's one of those lines that blew me away when I first read it. It makes you reconsider also Frodo's vision of Aragorn at his first meeting with Arwen. We learn more about it later, and specifically in the Appendices, that Galadriel dressed him for the part and therefore maybe there's spiritual and symbolic significance to their relationship.

Two other things about it: Frodo is, again, the one who sees things other than the temporal world. It is through his eyes that we glimpse the deeper significance of the events of the story.

It's also particularly powerful and ambiguous foreshadowing. We don't know what is going to happen to Aragorn, whether he is going to fufil his destiny or not.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Anyone but me who find it strange that Legolas is afraid here? So he's a Silvan Elf from Mirkwood, a rural place compared to Lórien, but at least the language should have made it clear to him that Haldir and co. are Elves, and Elves in a tree should not have come as a surprise to him.

He could have been afraid for his companions, and not himself. Only he is of elven-kind and only Aragorn has been in Lorien before.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Thanks bj!
And how come Legolas is unable to remember the whole song of Nimrodel? Elves do not forget things easily, and songs least of all.

He may have known the whole song in Elvish but he wouldn't be singing it so much in Westron as he was doing now. That might be why he forgot part of it.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Lothlórien

(Note: it was about two months between the Council of Elrond and the departure of the Fellowship, which explains the possibility of advance notification)

we had already been told, IIRC, that aragorn, elladan and elrohir had travelled to lorien in the time between the council and the departure of the fellowship.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn can't have done because Celeborn said it was eight and thrity years since he was last in Lorien.