Of Mount Doom

Beren3000 · 05-27-2006, 02:41 PM

If we take the Ring to represent sin and evil; couldn't the journey up Mount Doom to get rid of the Ring be comparable to a journey up Mount Purgatory? Would Sam's carrying Frodo up the mountain be seen as the guiding influence of a friend to help you get rid of sin? Any thoughts?

jammi567 · 05-27-2006, 03:00 PM

so all the trials (gollum, shelob etc) were there to mentally prepare Frodo for dramatically ridding the world of evil.

durinsbane2244 · 05-27-2006, 03:03 PM

but frodo failed...he was broken...he succumbed...

jammi567 · 05-27-2006, 03:08 PM

i know that, but what i'm saying is that they were there so that he could do it in the first place, regardless of what happened afterwards.

Landroval · 05-27-2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

but frodo failed

I wouldn't say so; according to letter #246, "his real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed." Seeing things from that point of view, he didn't fail, and Tolkien states several times that he justly received all honors.

durinsbane2244 · 05-27-2006, 03:38 PM

oh, well than, true enough!

Curubethion · 05-27-2006, 04:15 PM

That's a cool idea, an allusion to Purgatory.
But the destruction of the Ring was on March 25, the traditional date of the crucifixion. So I think it's more likely it represents the "descent into Sheol" that's traditionally been accepted by Catholocism.

Beren3000 · 05-28-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curubethion

March 25, the traditional date of the crucifixion.

Oh yeah? I never knew that. That's very interesting. But I still think that the comparison to Purgatory holds water because Frodo was quite average after all. IMO, he's meant to represent the struggle of humans against Evil (I used to think of him as a Christ-figure, but I don't anymore)

jammi567 · 05-28-2006, 12:32 PM

I fyou go to this place, you can find out who people think is the Christ figure. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13198

Beren3000 · 05-28-2006, 01:18 PM

I already know some Mooters' viewpoints on the matter!

jammi567 · 05-28-2006, 02:19 PM

i love the viewpoints on there, especially that Alsan from the Narnia series was meant to be representing Christ!

Jon S. · 05-29-2006, 07:31 PM

Even if the analogy is accurate that the ring represents sin and evil, Frodo dealt with it by personal action. He did not place his faith in a god/demigod to neutralize the sin/evil but acted to negate it. You can say he succumbed in the end and you can also say the final redemption came as the result of another physical being's (Gollum's) personal action. Be careful with these angles, you truly can read whatever you want into some of this stuff.

durinsbane2244 · 05-29-2006, 08:02 PM

i liked what christopher lee way saying in the interview on the first movie dvd, how samwise was the true hero...the "common man"...

Landroval · 05-30-2006, 01:33 AM

That is what Tolkien seemed to imply in letter #131:

I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty.

Beren3000 · 05-30-2006, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Frodo dealt with it by personal action. He did not place his faith in a god/demigod to neutralize the sin/evil but acted to negate it.

That's because depending on a god wouldn't have fitted with the general style of the rest of the story. There were gods in ME, but Tolkien expressed their presence only implicitly in LOTR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Be careful with these angles, you truly can read whatever you want into some of this stuff.

I'm not reading anything into such an analogy. I'm only saying that Tolkien could've based Mount Doom on Purgatory as a model (just like he based Turin on Oedipus), the possible theological implications that follow are (of course) questionable, but I'm talking about the model itself.

05-27-2006, 03:03 PM	#3
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	but frodo failed...he was broken...he succumbed... __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

05-27-2006, 03:08 PM	#4
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	i know that, but what i'm saying is that they were there so that he could do it in the first place, regardless of what happened afterwards. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

05-27-2006, 03:38 PM	#6
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	oh, well than, true enough! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

05-27-2006, 04:15 PM	#7
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	That's a cool idea, an allusion to Purgatory. But the destruction of the Ring was on March 25, the traditional date of the crucifixion. So I think it's more likely it represents the "descent into Sheol" that's traditionally been accepted by Catholocism. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

05-28-2006, 12:32 PM	#9
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	I fyou go to this place, you can find out who people think is the Christ figure. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13198 __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

05-27-2006, 02:41 PM	#1
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Of Mount Doom If we take the Ring to represent sin and evil; couldn't the journey up Mount Doom to get rid of the Ring be comparable to a journey up Mount Purgatory? Would Sam's carrying Frodo up the mountain be seen as the guiding influence of a friend to help you get rid of sin? Any thoughts?

05-27-2006, 03:00 PM	#2
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	so all the trials (gollum, shelob etc) were there to mentally prepare Frodo for dramatically ridding the world of evil. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

05-28-2006, 01:18 PM	#10
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I already know some Mooters' viewpoints on the matter!

05-28-2006, 02:19 PM	#11
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	i love the viewpoints on there, especially that Alsan from the Narnia series was meant to be representing Christ! __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

05-29-2006, 07:31 PM	#12
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	Even if the analogy is accurate that the ring represents sin and evil, Frodo dealt with it by personal action. He did not place his faith in a god/demigod to neutralize the sin/evil but acted to negate it. You can say he succumbed in the end and you can also say the final redemption came as the result of another physical being's (Gollum's) personal action. Be careful with these angles, you truly can read whatever you want into some of this stuff.

05-29-2006, 08:02 PM	#13
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	i liked what christopher lee way saying in the interview on the first movie dvd, how samwise was the true hero...the "common man"... __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

05-30-2006, 01:33 AM	#14
Landroval Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 421	That is what Tolkien seemed to imply in letter #131: I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty.

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