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samwiselvr2008
10-06-2003, 02:09 PM
Do Uruk-Hai live in Mordor or just in Isengard?

I need it for a project at school that I'm working on, and I'm not really sher!

Thanks! :)

Attalus
10-07-2003, 09:27 PM
*Runs screaming from the thread, hollering, "Grenade! Grenade!"* Seriously, this is a much vexed subject, akin to Balrog wings, where even normally mild-mannered Tolkienists get hot under the collar and write long, emphatic rants. If you like, I can post some links.

Attalus
10-07-2003, 09:33 PM
This link (http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3290&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) will serve as a primer on the Uruk-Hai question. Note that the thread is closed.

Sheeana
10-07-2003, 11:00 PM
They live in little mud pools in Isengard, of course! Ferpectly obvious!!

Melko Belcha
10-08-2003, 10:28 AM
The Uruks came from Mordor and are not Half-orcs bred by Saruman.

LotR - Appendix A
In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

The Uruks appeared out of Mordor almost 300 years before Saruman moved into Orthanc.

LotR - Appendix B
2759 - Saruman takes up his abode in Isengard.

LotR - Appendix F
Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soilder-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard.

Uruks is Black Speech for Orcs. Hai is never translated, in Unfinished Tales Christopher Tolkien writes

Unfinished Tales - Index
Uruks - Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength.

Many have translated Hai as meaning folk or race, I believe it means troop or company as can be seen in this quote.

TTT - The Choices of Master Samwise
'Hai! hai! yoi!' A yell broke into the exchanges of the leaders. The Orcs lower down had suddenly seen something.

The Orc is calling to the rest of his company by saying hai, as if he was calling his troop or company.

Here are some more quotes to show that there was Uruks in Mordor.

FotR - The Bridge of Khazad-dum
'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he (Gandalf) said. 'And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor.'

TTT - The Choices of Master Samwise
Always the poor Uruks to put slips right

RotK - The Land of Shadow
...then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai

RotK - The Land of Shadow
Beside them, running up and down the line, went two of the large fierce uruks.

RotK - The Land of Shadow
A troop of heavy-armed uruks from Barad-dur

Many people believe that Saruman's Uruk-hai are Half-orcs, but this is not correct, most people take these quotes as proof.

TTT - Treebeard
'For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!'

TTT - Helm's Deep
'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,' said Gamling

But they miss these quotes.

FotR - A Knife in the Dark
'So that's were that southerner is hiding!' he (Frodo) thought. 'He looks more than half like a goblin.'

TTT - Flotsam and Jetsam
'But there were others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree, only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.'
'I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep.'

RotK - The Scouring of the Shire
...they were disturbed to see half a dozen large ill-favored Men lounging against the inn-wall; they were squint-eyed and sallow-faced.
'Like that friend of Bill Ferny's at Bree,' said Sam.
'Like many that I saw at Isengard,' muttered Merry

RotK - The Scouring of the Shire
Merry himself slew the leader, a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc.

There is also this quote.

LotR - Appendix A
At that time Sauron had arisen again, and the shadow of Mordor reached out to Rohan. Orcs began to raid in the eastern regions and slay or steal horses. Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected.

You can see that it says Uruks from the Misty Mountains in service to Saruman, and from Gandalf's quote we know that there was Uruks from Mordor living in Moria.

Melko Belcha
10-08-2003, 10:30 AM
But for those who still believe that the Uruks are half-orcs look at this quote.

Unfinished Tales - The Battle of the Fords of Isen
The Garrison of the east bank surprised by the sudden assault of the massed Uruks.......As soon as the enemy had gained possession of the eastern end of the Fords there appeared a company of men or Orc-men....

The Orc-men followed the Uruks into battle. Here are a few more quotes.

Unfinished Tales - The Hunt for the Ring
Some while ago one of Saruman's most trusted servants (yet a ruffianly fellow, an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had Orc-blood) had returned from the borders of the Shire, where he had been negotiating for the purpose of "leaf" and other supplies............This Dunlending was overtaken by seceral of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing...........The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter........Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. He put therefore the Shadow of fear on the Dunlending, and sent him on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn. *C.T. note: See The Fellowship of the Ring. When Strider and the Hobbits left Bree Frodo caught a glimpse of the Dunlending ("a swallow face with sly, slanting eyes") in Bill Ferny's house on the outskirts of Bree, and thought: "He looks more than half like a goblin."*

Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed
There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

The sotherner at Bree must have been a Man-orc and the brute that Merry killed must have been a Orc-man.

Sheeana
10-08-2003, 06:05 PM
The dispute is about the Uruk-Hai, NOT the uruks. If you'll look at the link that Attalus supplied, you'll see why it's so contentious.

Melko Belcha
10-09-2003, 10:25 AM
Uruks is the anglicized form of Uruk-hai, they are the same, there is no difference between the Uruk-hai and the Uruks. In Unfinished Tales everytime that Tolkien talks about the Uruk-hai that works for Saruman he calls them Uruks. In the Appendix to LotR it says that Uruks of the Misty Mountains were in service to Saruman. Give me one quote where Tolkien says they are different. Even Christopher Tolkien has written they are the same.